FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

Discuss the sport you love with other motorsport fans

Formula One related discussion.
#214143
i agree! I really wanted to see Jenson and Lewis take the plunge in Turkey, and yet they were told by the team not to. That would have been a great battle for the finish. But the race was ruined for me, by a team order :thumbdown:


Did you actually watch the Turkey GP? i don't see how that can be your proof of Mclaren team orders especially considering the message given to Hamilton that Button wouldn't pass ended up being total BS because Button passed him anyway and when Hamilton overtook Button again the lap after they actually slightly touched.

The main difference between RBR and Mclaren in that race was that both Mclaren drivers had the experience to overtake while giving room so when their cars touched they didn't take each other out, but you could clearly see even if the Mclaren team were giving team orders the drivers weren't following them.

I am not saying Mclaren have never used team orders since the rule was added (although i still don't consider fuel saving a coded message) but you just gave a quite stupid example.

Although maybe the overtakes were actually a super secret team order cover up bluff in order to trick everyone into thinking Mclaren aren't using team orders by actually using them? it makes so much sense now!
#214148
Ferrari have thanked the FIA for promising to look at the rule that they and their prima donna driver cant cope with. So if you break a rule that is a little tricky to clarify you get it scrapped. Great message!
#214153
Hmm, sad but inevitable really. As i said in a much earlier post, the court didn't really have a leg to stand on unless Massa or Smedley grassed on them. And because of that exact fact i'll sit here and laugh whenever i read or hear cries of Ferrari International Assistance and Jean Todt bending the rules for them, because that too is totally ridiculous to claim. At least that can of worms hasn't been opened... :P All teams can, have and will use team orders when it suits them, i guess from now on they'll all just take more care to code their messages, as seemingly the fact that it wasn't very well disguised is more of an insult to fans than well disguised orders (which have been regularly employed since the ban of team orders on several occasions by multiple teams, albeit in different ways). Which i find odd, but it's just the way it is.
#214158
Eh, Alonso was faster in the race, did you hear Smedely urging Massa on before the order, possibly all Ferrari were doing was ensuring Alonso got passed cleanly, if Alonso wasn't going to get close enough to Massa to make it risky, Massa was ok.

The 100k fine is bizarre, and stupid. It literally means, thats your punishment for breaching the team order rule. Of course the real reason is the FIA being stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't really prove and punish Ferrari, but everyone knows what happened, illegal or not Ferrari did move one driver out of the way of another, so the FIA don't want to "rub salt in the wound" by removing the fine and admitting they don't really have grounds to punish the team. Not technically, and that's the bottom line.

Massa stuck to his guns, "it was my decision".
#214160
Hmm, sad but inevitable really. As i said in a much earlier post, the court didn't really have a leg to stand on unless Massa or Smedley grassed on them.


That is exactly why i wasn't expecting them to get any extra penalties even if i still believe what they did ruined that race and corrupted the results which i am sure many people placed bets on.

Ferrari have thanked the FIA for promising to look at the rule that they and their prima donna driver cant cope with. So if you break a rule that is a little tricky to clarify you get it scrapped. Great message!


I don't even blame ferrari for that i blame whoever wrote the rule book and failed to clarify the rule in enough detail.
#214161
If Ferrari can break this rule and get away with it, and Ferrari almost screwed up this one, Massa and Smedely were bitter enough to make it obvious, the team could've preformed it much more subtly, you've gotta scrap the rule no? If it can't act as a deterrent what good does it do?

Benson on the bbc: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson ... right.html

Too tired to read it today, someone else do it.
#214162
Hmm, sad but inevitable really. As i said in a much earlier post, the court didn't really have a leg to stand on unless Massa or Smedley grassed on them. And because of that exact fact i'll sit here and laugh whenever i read or hear cries of Ferrari International Assistance and Jean Todt bending the rules for them, because that too is totally ridiculous to claim. At least that can of worms hasn't been opened... :P All teams can, have and will use team orders when it suits them, i guess from now on they'll all just take more care to code their messages, as seemingly the fact that it wasn't very well disguised is more of an insult to fans than well disguised orders (which have been regularly employed since the ban of team orders on several occasions by multiple teams, albeit in different ways). Which i find odd, but it's just the way it is.

There might not be enough physical evidence but there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence, which in a court of law can send a person to prison so why not in a sporting case? The bigger issue here is Ferrari literally doing what it wants and the FIA doing nothing about it; could it have been any more blatant? Short of saying, "pull over and let Fernando pass", I really don't think so! But yes the big failing here is the rules and the lack of clarity of those rules, bottom line is don't create rules than cannot or will not be enforced! That's what I am pissed off about; creating a rule to appease fans that actually means nothing on the track, it's an insult to the fans intelligence!

If Ferrari can break this rule and get away with it, and Ferrari almost screwed up this one, Massa and Smedely were bitter enough to make it obvious, the team could've preformed it much more subtly, you've gotta scrap the rule no? If it can't act as a deterrent what good does it do?

It's not the rule that's the deterrent; it's the punishment that deters the teams; if no punishment is forthcoming then it's a non-offence in the teams eyes!
#214166
That's what I am pissed off about; creating a rule to appease fans that actually means nothing on the track, it's an insult to the fans intelligence!


exactly the sentiment of many fans at the moment, Ferrari international assistance was number 1 trending topic on twitter earlier and the way people like the press officer ( who's name i cannot remember, Luca something ? ) and Stefano Dominicali insulted the fans intelligence during the post race interviews was just disgraceful.

why would rob Smedley apologise after massa conceded the place to alonso, as the official ferrari line was it was massa's choice after being informed ? just doesn't make any sense .
#214170
The fact that the hearing was postponed so long after the crime was already an indicator they want things to cool down before passing the judgment.

Again, the sport gets laughed at as the bully of F1 gets away with another crime to it's already muddy name.

Ah well, hope dies last! Go McLaren and Lewis for Monza! :clap:
#214174
:smash:
Case closed.

Dont like team orders? Follow Red Bull and enjoy them dumbasses hitting eachother and blowing the championship.
Want to say you dont like them, but turn the blind eye when your team does it? follow Mclaren in perpetual hypocrisy.
Wanna tell Ferrari how to run their team? pay their bills. :wink:

There was nothing proveable except what Ferrari told Massa, and there was nothing wrong in that. Doesnt mean much, except that the rule as it is makes no sense.

Okay, now I see why Ferrari fans have such a bad reputation.
#214177
:smash:
Case closed.

Dont like team orders? Follow Red Bull and enjoy them dumbasses hitting eachother and blowing the championship.
Want to say you dont like them, but turn the blind eye when your team does it? follow Mclaren in perpetual hypocrisy.
Wanna tell Ferrari how to run their team? pay their bills. :wink:

There was nothing proveable except what Ferrari told Massa, and there was nothing wrong in that. Doesnt mean much, except that the rule as it is makes no sense.

Okay, now I see why Ferrari fans have such a bad reputation.
:rofl:
#214181
:smash:
Case closed.

Dont like team orders? Follow Red Bull and enjoy them dumbasses hitting eachother and blowing the championship.
Want to say you dont like them, but turn the blind eye when your team does it? follow Mclaren in perpetual hypocrisy.
Wanna tell Ferrari how to run their team? pay their bills. :wink:

There was nothing proveable except what Ferrari told Massa, and there was nothing wrong in that. Doesnt mean much, except that the rule as it is makes no sense.


Well said mate.

:rofl:

And I actually agree with this. ALMOST. Except it's Vettel who's doing the hitting. :wink:
#214184
From Benson's well written article on BBC:

"But some do believe that if teams are to employ them [team orders], they should do so in a way that is more subtle than Ferrari managed at Hockenheim - so they do not upset those parts of the audience who do not understand a) that team orders have been part of grand prix racing since it started more than 100 years ago; and b) that a rule banning them is unenforcable.

There is, though, an important philosophical question here for F1 - one that goes to the root of how it will conduct itself in the future, on all issues, not just this one.

Does it want to be a sport that deceives its public, or one that is open with it? Because for as long as it has a rule banning team orders, it will always be the first.

As far as the watching public is concerned, which is worse? To know that a driver has let his team-mate past to win in the interests of his title chances? Or to believe you have watched a race when in fact you have not?

Arguing to keep the rule but letting teams go on covertly breaking it is effectively saying you don't mind being lied to as long as you don't know about it. And that doesn't alter the fact that, even if teams do it covertly, they have still broken the rules.

And don't be under the misconception that only Ferrari are guilty of employing team orders.

As David Coulthard said after the German race: "Every team in this pit lane gives team orders and anyone who says they don't is lying."

[...]

Todt is now the FIA president and - aware of the possible conflict of interest, and of the fact that some would say he was favouring Ferrari - he did not take part in Wednesday's hearing, handing the reins to his deputy, Graham Stoker.

The decision was - as with other matters in this controversy - more to do with perception than reality.

It looked good, but it was unnecessary. Firstly, because Todt and Ferrari did not part on good terms, so he had no reason to want to help them out. But also because, as one of the more astute political operators in F1, it is hardly beyond Todt's wit to tell Stoker what he wanted to happen, should that have been his desire.

As it turned out, clearly Todt and the FIA were able to look at this important decision with the dispassionate approach it required.

So far, Todt has been a very different FIA president from Mosley, whose 18 years at the top of motorsport ended last year when he was effectively forced out by the F1 teams, who had grown tired of what they had come to see as his autocratic and arbitrary governance.

Todt, by contrast, has taken a low-key, conciliatory, inclusive approach. As the first major F1 disciplinary hearing of his tenure, Wednesday's events were being watched with interest to see whether that continued. Now, it seems clear that will be the hallmark of the Todt presidency.

Mosley, incidentally, made his position in this matter clear a couple of weeks ago, when he told the German newspaper Die Welt that he thought the Ferrari drivers should be docked their points.

If Todt had wanted to send a message that his is a new, independent regime, he could not have made it clearer.

He - and the FIA - should be applauded for recognising the rule banning team orders was not only unenforceable, but also a betrayal of the history of the sport. And for having the courage to do the right thing. "

End of.
No more :deadhorse: please. Can't wait for the team order rule to be officially repealed.
#214185
As I am the original poster I have the option to lock this one and I am doing so. I personally agree with the team orders ban but it seems that the FIA are unable and/or unwilling to enforce the rule so lets repeal the rule and move on, hopefully restoring the old rule which prohibits team orders unless necessary for the championship battle!
  • 1
  • 17
  • 18
  • 19
  • 20
  • 21

See our F1 related articles too!