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[myownalias]

This is a continuation of the FERRARI RADIO-GATE thread; hopefully we can keep Lewis Hamilton out of this one...

The hearing is coming up in a couple of weeks, let's see if the FIA has the balls to punish Ferrari for blatantly flouting the rules.

Ferrari on the defensive... see article below:

Ferrari have hit back at Niki Lauda's criticism of their race-fixing tactics at last month's German Grand Prix.

The three-time world champion said his former team would be given "a pasting" by the World Motor Sport Council in September when they review the race.

Stewards said Ferrari had imposed team orders on Felipe Massa to give Fernando Alonso victory in the race.

But Ferrari, in a column on their official website, said the 61-year-old Austrian was being "hypocritical".

Ferrari were fined $100,000 for their actions following the race on 26 July in Hockenheim.

But the sport's governing body, the FIA, say the case will be heard by the WMSC in Paris on Wednesday 8 September - four days before the Italian Grand Prix - when the team could face the added possibility of a points deduction or even exclusion from the championship.

Lauda, who won two of his three world titles with the famous Maranello marque, was quoted as telling Formula1.com that what the team did in Germany was "against all rules."

He stated: "Either the rules are changed or everybody observes them. What they've done is wrong and they got an immediate punishment - and they will get a pasting from the World Council, that is for sure."

But responding through their "Horse Whisperer" column on their official website, Ferrari said: "After events in Hockenheim, a wave of hypocrisy swept through the paddock, with so many pundits, young and old, keen to have their say.

"Some were promptly brought back into line by his master's voice, while others continue to pronounce sentence willy-nilly.

"The latest missive comes from Austria, from a person, who having hung up his helmet, has never missed out on a chance to dispense opinions left and right, even if, on more than one occasion, he has had to indulge in some verbal acrobatics to reposition himself in line with the prevailing wind.

"This time, good old Niki has missed out on a fine opportunity to keep his mouth shut, given that, when he was a Scuderia driver, the supposed Ferrari driver management policy suited him perfectly.

"That aside, where was all his moral fury when, over the past years, so many have been guilty of more or less overt hypocritical actions?"

With regard to Lauda's suggestion that the WMSC will punish Ferrari severely, the column added: "As for any predictions regarding a possible decision from the FIA World Council on September 8, time will tell.

"In this sort of situation, the best policy is to respect and to trust in the highest level of the sport's governing body."

The fine Ferrari were given in Germany is the maximum the stewards were allowed to impose and the matter was subsequently referred to the sport's governing body.

Team orders are banned in Formula 1 and the move has provoked widespread anger within the sport.

[The Immortal Dragon]

I don't think there will be a penalty for Ferrari.
Even if the FIA think that would be the right thing to do, I doubt they will punish Ferrari when quite a few people agreed with what Ferrari did in the first place. (Ecclestone, too. Come on! )

However, they have to look after F1's integrity, so I think they will do is to change the rule, so that teams will not want to do the same thing again.

[Jabberwocky]

As a constructor Ferrari gained nothing from the team orders.

[The Immortal Dragon]

I don't think there will be a penalty for Ferrari.
Even if the FIA think that would be the right thing to do, I doubt they will punish Ferrari when quite a few people agreed with what Ferrari did in the first place. (Ecclestone, too. Come on! )

However, they have to look after F1's integrity, so I think they will do is to change the rule, so that teams will not want to do the same thing again.

What I really think they will do is this:

They will rewrite the rule stating the difference between a TEAM ORDER and TEAM STRATEGY. The two things are completely different.
What Ferrari did was part of a team strategy.
Ferrari did not gain directly from what they did, so a punishment wouldn't be the right thing from my point of view.

What Ferrari did was swapping their drivers' position so to have a better chance to fight for the WDC with Alonso. In order to do this, the race winner changed.
But what is wrong with what Ferrari did? They can't find anything wrong with it. They know Alonso is their best chance to win the WDC, and they used it as best as they could.
Some might argue that F1 should be about drivers fighting for a win, but 90% of the times that's not how F1 works. It didn't work like this, it doesn't work like that and it won't.

What the rule will state is that is against the rules to have an agreement with a team in order to disadvantage another.
Example: McLaren and RBR agree on the Ferrari's whenever possible so to get more points for themselves.
That is a team ORDER, when two teams work together against another.

I think they will simply state this difference in a revised version of the rule.

[smokin]

The FIA are in a hole with no sensible way out. The rule is there to appease the fans. Without the fans the sponsors won't be interested - they're not philanthropists. They expect tangible payback from associating themselves with the cachet of F1. Without the sponsors the sport dies.

The FIA can't scrap it and they can't modify it such that it allows orders within a team.

The rule, unenforceable and disliked by the teams, will stay and every few years this farce will rear its ugly head again.

[NocturnalTendencies]

The rule, unenforceable and disliked by the teams, will stay and every few years this farce will rear its ugly head again.

+1

[Jabberwocky]

I think the problem was Rob Smedley, If he had just said "Alonso is faster than you" and Massa moved over then none of this would of been a problem.

However

"Alonso. is. faster. than. you.. Can you confirm you understand that 'message'? "

and then

"Good Lad, Sorry"

[Denthúl]

If it was Lewis Ham-

Seriously, the WMSC have to punish Ferrari because they were deemed to have broken a rule by the stewards at the event. To reverse the decision would be a massive own goal as it would undermine the stewards at races. However, they must also do something about the current situation as the rule is very difficult to enforce. They can't remove it because the fans would be unhappy at seeing that kind of thing so early in the season and it would reintroduce the tier of drivers who were contractually bound to be number two drivers.

They could ban in-car radios, but that wouldn't rule out orders being given before the race. They could also impose a minimum fuel level to try to counteract the orders that might come about through giving fuel-saving messages but, again, I don't really see that as being workable, especially if future regulations state that each car must carry a specified amount of fuel and make it last the whole race.

It's an interesting situation. One-car teams would probably be the most effective way of getting rid of team orders but it isn't viable, given all the other costs associated with participating in Formula One.

[f1ea]

The FIA are in a hole with no sensible way out. The rule is there to appease the fans. Without the fans the sponsors won't be interested - they're not philanthropists. They expect tangible payback from associating themselves with the cachet of F1. Without the sponsors the sport dies.

The FIA can't scrap it and they can't modify it such that it allows orders within a team.

The rule, unenforceable and disliked by the teams, will stay and every few years this farce will rear its ugly head again.

The rule is there because the press has stuck into their minds that team orders are some weird way of manipulating a result. Its there to appease hypocritical fans. Because the same fans that condemn team orders have no problems with it (or call it something else) when it suits their interests. The same press that condemn a team order turn the blind eye when they want to.

The fans have been terribly misled by those making something completely normal seem like they're letting the sport down. Somehow, its been drilled into the minds that 2 teammates taking eachother out is what entertainment and racing is all about. Wake up.

Its a team sport. The team will play their cards to the best of their sportive interests. Nodoby has done anything beyond comprehension. In ANY OTHER SPORT when a player is willing to overlook the team's interest and/or coach or authority guideline they get punished. Basketball fans never complain when the best player gets the ball for the last minute shot. They dont care that the best player gets the ball most of the time. Whenever a player is struggling, the ball goes to someone else. As simple as that.

If any player dares throw a fit or whatever because the team is blind to his individual interests he gets substituted before he can even say the "team made me do it".

Ferrari will run its team as it chooses. And they should be able to. Whoever doesnt like it, go follow Red Bull and enjoy the show of having their drivers take eachother out, or follow Mclaren who only say they do something when they really dont.

Drivers will be treated equally when drivers are equal. Why was there nothing wrong with Vettel blocking Alonso on the start of germany? Why did he not block Massa? Aren't all drivers equal??

As DD would say: pfffffffffffffft.

[f1ea]

I think the problem was Rob Smedley, If he had just said "Alonso is faster than you" and Massa moved over then none of this would of been a problem.

However

"Alonso. is. faster. than. you.. Can you confirm you understand that 'message'? "

and then

"Good Lad, Sorry"

They did it on purpose. To mock the team.

Here's how I would run the radio: Alonso is faster than you and is going to make a move. NO CONTACT.

What is the essential difference between my message and Rob's??
What would be wrong in my "order"? Is it even an order??
What rule would i have broken??

I'm sending Ferrari my CV

[Jabberwocky]

I think if I was Ferrari, I would of then given an order of "Smedley, Your weeds are growing in your garden. Do you understand the message?"

[myownalias]

The issue is the FIA are not willing to put their money where their mouths are; the rule is pointless if they are not going to enforce it; for example in most cases of team orders, the #2 driver blends the throttle when they normally wouldn't to allow #1 to pass, if any two team drivers are caught in such actions, punishment should be forthcoming as it's manipulating the outcome of the race, whether it's a team order or driver decision. This would be very easy to spot in the telemetry, compare the previous three laps and the following three laps to the lap where the overtake was made. It's not hard to enforce; simple rules are simple to enforce. If a driver has a problem then it's upto the team to appeal and prove that #2 driver had a problem!

[Hammer278]

But as for LEWIS HAMIL-...

Seriously, what someone said about team 'strategy' and team 'orders' being separated, that theory will never fly. A team can always argue that everything was under the team 'strategy' column.

A team can employ No.1 and No.2 drivers and immediately call it "team strategy"! In theory, pointing the finger at what Ferrari did with Michael and how successful they were with their 5 straight WDCs in a row(when it was more to do with a fantastic car + engine combo)

Ferrari broke a direct rule, and their engineer got caught red handed on the radio. There's just one credible thing to do, strip the WDC+WCC points of drivers and team from that race. And YES, drivers have to be punished. One of their drivers were whining away about being faster for a few laps, and after the race, outright lied to everyone that team orders were NOT in force. Massa on his hand, although the victim, did the crime when he moved over and later made a big show in the press conference.

Then we can move on and look forward to Spa.

[myownalias]

I think that everyone is agreed that Ferrari broke the rules, the question is whether the FIA will enforce those rules to their fullest extent, I believe it'll be a slapped wrist!!!

Bottom line here is either the FIA enforce the rules with some sort of points deduction or expulsion from the 2010 season, or trash the rule and allow team orders. I don't agree with team orders, never have and never will but if it's not going to be enforced then just drop the rule and stop with all the posturing and bullsh*t!

[darwin dali]

I think that everyone is agreed that Ferrari broke the rules, the question is whether the FIA will enforce those rules to their fullest extent, I believe it'll be a slapped wrist!!!

Bottom line here is either the FIA enforce the rules with some sort of points deduction or expulsion from the 2010 season, or trash the rule and allow team orders. I don't agree with team orders, never have and never will but if it's not going to be enforced then just drop the rule and stop with all the posturing and bullsh*t!

it has never been enforced - why all of a sudden now? Teammates have been swapping places all the time towards the end of the season since the team order ban was put in place and almost everybody was just fine with it. Should there be a ban on team orders only for the first half of the season or 3/4 or what? Well, then have the FIA spell it out