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Perhaps you can define justice for me.
I'm sorry, but if a Ferrari took Hamilton out and McLaren retaliated by having one of their cars take out the other Ferrari, then they'd be no better than Ferrari for it. End of.
Well, it depends on your motives: do you do it for revenge or justice? As far as I'm concerned, Hamilton is the just champion of 2008, so it would be correct to ask Kovalainen to ram Massa off the circuit if Raikkonen took Hamilton out of the race. Indeed, I think McLaren are the just champions of 2008 as well, so, if it were possible, I wouldn't mind seeing one or both of the Ferraris getting wiped so McLaren could win the constructors' title. The balance between injustice and justice would be restored.
That's a funny idea of justice.
Perhaps you can define justice for me.the quality of being just or fair
Taking any competitor out of a race is not fair and in the scenario you came up with, revenge would not be justice.
I'm sorry, but if a Ferrari took Hamilton out and McLaren retaliated by having one of their cars take out the other Ferrari, then they'd be no better than Ferrari for it. End of.
Well, it depends on your motives: do you do it for revenge or justice? As far as I'm concerned, Hamilton is the just champion of 2008, so it would be correct to ask Kovalainen to ram Massa off the circuit if Raikkonen took Hamilton out of the race. Indeed, I think McLaren are the just champions of 2008 as well, so, if it were possible, I wouldn't mind seeing one or both of the Ferraris getting wiped so McLaren could win the constructors' title. The balance between injustice and justice would be restored.
That's a funny idea of justice.
Perhaps you can define justice for me.the quality of being just or fair
Taking any competitor out of a race is not fair and in the scenario you came up with, revenge would not be justice.
The definition you provide is only one definition of many, for there are many philosophical, theological and legal debates as to what justice is.
And at any rate, in the scenario you suggested, you'd most likely just end up with more injustice, since I doubt either title-contender would ask their team to order their team-mate to take out their rival.
And at any rate, in the scenario you suggested, you'd most likely just end up with more injustice, since I doubt either title-contender would ask their team to order their team-mate to take out their rival.
You may up with some injustice in that Kovalainen and Raikkonen would lose some championship points, but they are completely out of the game and will have very little bearing. Overall, I feel it would be worth it the sacrifice would be worth it for Hamilton and McLaren to win a title that is justly theirs.
I was talking more about Hamilton and Massa.
If Ferrari asked Raikkonen to take out Hamilton without Massa wanting them to, or indeed knowing about it, then it would be unfair on Hamilton. But if McLaren then asked Kovalainen to take out Massa without Hamilton wanting them to or knowing about it, then it would be unfair on Massa. Both championship contenders would have suffered an injustice - the two would not cancel each other out and create justice in this scenario.
I was talking more about Hamilton and Massa.
If Ferrari asked Raikkonen to take out Hamilton without Massa wanting them to, or indeed knowing about it, then it would be unfair on Hamilton. But if McLaren then asked Kovalainen to take out Massa without Hamilton wanting them to or knowing about it, then it would be unfair on Massa. Both championship contenders would have suffered an injustice - the two would not cancel each other out and create justice in this scenario.
If Hamilton was bashed out of the race, Massa would be unjustly crowned champion, and Hamilton would be robbed of a title that was justly his. It's not nice to see title challenges settled in such a manner, but foul should should be returned with more foul play. It's not as though the FIA will help Hamilton or McLaren, or indeed could help them if they wanted to.
That just leads to it being used more and more and more in the future, and is not the solution to any problem.
Likewise, if Massa was taken out, he would unjustly have been denied the chance to fight for the championship. Regardless of its now-farcical nature, officially he is still in a position to be world champion. If he had actually asked the FIA to penalise Hamilton at Spa and Fuji then yeah, I'd see you point as a little more fair, but I don't think that he did make those requests, and so it's not actually his own fault that Hamilton has been hindered.
That just leads to it being used more and more and more in the future, and is not the solution to any problem.
Likewise, if Massa was taken out, he would unjustly have been denied the chance to fight for the championship. Regardless of its now-farcical nature, officially he is still in a position to be world champion. If he had actually asked the FIA to penalise Hamilton at Spa and Fuji then yeah, I'd see you point as a little more fair, but I don't think that he did make those requests, and so it's not actually his own fault that Hamilton has been hindered.
It may not be Massa's fault the FIA hindered Hamilton, but that's beside the point. As things are, without FIA intervention, Hamilton would already have been world champion. Massa should, therefore, count himself lucky that he still has a chance of officially becoming champion.
If Massa was taken out of the race, it would be unjust, granted. The consequences of this unjust act would, however, be minor; for it would be an even greater injustice that he was crowned champion at Hamilton's expense.
As I said before, I don't want to see the battle for the championship end in such way; but it would be a travesty of justice not see Hamilton as champion this season. Being Formula One world champion is the highest honour in motorsport and chances to win this title aren't usually around the corner, as it were, so it's vital that the person who wins the title is the just champion - not a false champion, manufactured by the FIA.
That just leads to it being used more and more and more in the future, and is not the solution to any problem.
Likewise, if Massa was taken out, he would unjustly have been denied the chance to fight for the championship. Regardless of its now-farcical nature, officially he is still in a position to be world champion. If he had actually asked the FIA to penalise Hamilton at Spa and Fuji then yeah, I'd see you point as a little more fair, but I don't think that he did make those requests, and so it's not actually his own fault that Hamilton has been hindered.
It may not be Massa's fault the FIA hindered Hamilton, but that's beside the point. As things are, without FIA intervention, Hamilton would already have been world champion. Massa should, therefore, count himself lucky that he still has a chance of officially becoming champion.
If Massa was taken out of the race, it would be unjust, granted. The consequences of this unjust act would, however, be minor; for it would be an even greater injustice that he was crowned champion at Hamilton's expense.
As I said before, I don't want to see the battle for the championship end in such way; but it would be a travesty of justice not see Hamilton as champion this season. Being Formula One world champion is the highest honour in motorsport and chances to win this title aren't usually around the corner, as it were, so it's vital that the person who wins the title is the just champion - not a false champion, manufactured by the FIA.
This is true, and it is where the perception of what is just and what is not comes in to play. I agree that Massa would not be a just champion, but it would be unjust for him not to be allowed to fight for the championship as he is now, whether it's a real championship or the rubbish that we've been given. It's one of those situations where nobody is truly going to win, unfortunately :/
[I'm not sure what i'd do but it would be option one or two if i were Massa i'd want to win it by being the best not having the best support from the FIA
[I'm not sure what i'd do but it would be option one or two if i were Massa i'd want to win it by being the best not having the best support from the FIA
But Massa doesnt have the option of winning by being the best. That option went out the window at Spa. So all he can hope for now is a dishonourable victory(albeit by FIA hands not his own), lose, or do the honorable thing.....which he wont!!
Massa for one will be winning in Brazil however i think when he sees hamilton break down crying in the middle of park ferme I think he will be the bigger man and give it to him..... after all he still a baby and normally if you give the baby what it wants ..its quiet. after which he will tell the FIA that he cheated 5 races ago and insist to be penalised for it.
Is this the way you "guys" want it to go down or will you stop speculating the same thing over and over and over and over....??? why dont we change the subject a little cos its all getting extremely boring and frustrating now.
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