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[darwin dali]

With SV changing to Red Bull, wouldn't it be prudent for Mateschitz to try to get the better engine into his main team and go for the jugular with the young lion?

[EwanM]

With SV changing to Red Bull, wouldn't it be prudent for Mateschitz to try to get the better engine into his main team and go for the jugular with the young lion?

May not matter with the return to more Mechanical grip - I no that's a point easily argued against. The Renault engine surely lacks horsepower, but surely they can try to invest in it like other teams have.

[McLaren Fan]

Mateschitz is not exactly short of cash, so he could easily afford to terminate his contract with Renault and buy decent engines, i.e. a BMW, Mercedes or, most likely Ferrari unit. Any of those teams would happily supply engines to Toro Rosso if they felt it could help them lure Vettel to their teams in the future.

[Denthúl]

Yes. However, there are options other than the Ferrari power-plant that he could attempt to pursue. BMW and Mercedes both make a fairly powerful unit, which would doubtless be worth considering. Then we'd probably get a good idea of whether one engine is faster than the other (Ferrari vs. Mercedes).

[darwin dali]

The contractual situation however, could throw in a monkey wrench. Simply canceling a Renault contract may be too expensive. The simpler solution would be an in-house swap.

[McLaren Fan]

With SV changing to Red Bull, wouldn't it be prudent for Mateschitz to try to get the better engine into his main team and go for the jugular with the young lion?

May not matter with the return to more Mechanical grip - I no that's a point easily argued against. The Renault engine surely lacks horsepower, but surely they can try to invest in it like other teams have.

At least you're away your point can be easily encountered. I always use the McLaren MP4-8 in these situations. The chassis of this car was brilliant, but had a Ford engine which was completely useless. If that chassis had, say, the Renault engine attached, it would have won more races and been a serious title contender.

[EwanM]

With SV changing to Red Bull, wouldn't it be prudent for Mateschitz to try to get the better engine into his main team and go for the jugular with the young lion?

May not matter with the return to more Mechanical grip - I no that's a point easily argued against. The Renault engine surely lacks horsepower, but surely they can try to invest in it like other teams have.

At least you're away your point can be easily encountered. I always use the McLaren MP4-8 in these situations. The chassis of this car was brilliant, but had a Ford engine which was completely useless. If that chassis had, say, the Renault engine attached, it would have won more races and been a serious title contender.

Indeed it was the 1993 Mclaren Ford that I thought of when I answered that.
But I'd say that the Renault ain't as far behind as the Ford was back then?

[McLaren Fan]

The contractual situation however, could throw in a monkey wrench. Simply canceling a Renault contract may be too expensive. The simpler solution would be an in-house swap.

Ah. I think McLaren had something like that planned for 1993. Basically, Dennis would buy over Ligier, who were using Renault engines, and then get the powerplants shifted over to McLaren. Renault agreed to this, but the plans fell through because Elf insisted their oil be used with the Renault engines and Dennis was not prepared to do this, wanting to keep his contract with Shell.

[Denthúl]

With SV changing to Red Bull, wouldn't it be prudent for Mateschitz to try to get the better engine into his main team and go for the jugular with the young lion?

May not matter with the return to more Mechanical grip - I no that's a point easily argued against. The Renault engine surely lacks horsepower, but surely they can try to invest in it like other teams have.

At least you're away your point can be easily encountered. I always use the McLaren MP4-8 in these situations. The chassis of this car was brilliant, but had a Ford engine which was completely useless. If that chassis had, say, the Renault engine attached, it would have won more races and been a serious title contender.

Indeed it was the 1993 Mclaren Ford that I thought of when I answered that.
But I'd say that the Renault ain't as far behind as the Ford was back then?

I'd say it's still pretty far. I mean, you just have to compare the current performance of the Red Bull car with that of the Toro Rosso. The chassis is undeniably good, as proved by the RB4 in the early part of the season and the STR3 in the late part of it, so the engine is making quite a big difference. I feel that Webber and Vettel are on a similar level at the moment in terms of how they are performing, so it is probably the best comparison of the two engines.

[McLaren Fan]

The difference is rumoured to be 30 horsepower between the Renault and Ferrari units. The BMW and Mercedes' powerplants are of a similar standard, although the Mercedes' engine seems to have a nicer torque curve. 30 horsepower is a hell of a lot.

[Denthúl]

The difference is rumoured to be 30 horsepower between the Renault and Ferrari units. The BMW and Mercedes' powerplants are of a similar standard, although the Mercedes' engine seems to have a nicer torque curve. 30 horsepower is a hell of a lot.

Interestingly, it didn't seem to push the cars along as fast as the BMW did at Monza at times. I mean, through that particular speed-trap, the Ferrari-powered cars filled-out the top eight anyway, but the BMW did seem to have the advantage over the Mercedes. It could also have been down to aero-levels, though, so it's not really an accurate comparison, unfortunately.

[EwanM]

The difference is rumoured to be 30 horsepower between the Renault and Ferrari units. The BMW and Mercedes' powerplants are of a similar standard, although the Mercedes' engine seems to have a nicer torque curve. 30 horsepower is a hell of a lot.

Yes, but with renewed investment, maybe Renault will use similar techniques to the other teams to develop their engines outwith the freeze and claw some of that back. I remember Mercedes lacking power compared to the Ferrari and BMW at the turn of the century but that was rectified.
Renault know what they are doing, engine wise - the 90s speak for themselves. Time will tell and if I were Red Bull i'd stick with it.

[McLaren Fan]

Interestingly, it didn't seem to push the cars along as fast as the BMW did at Monza at times. I mean, through that particular speed-trap, the Ferrari-powered cars filled-out the top eight anyway, but the BMW did seem to have the advantage over the Mercedes. It could also have been down to aero-levels, though, so it's not really an accurate comparison, unfortunately.

The MP4-23 suffers from aerodynamic drag very slightly more than the Ferrari. However, in Monza trim, a lot of the aerodynamic bits and bobs are stripped off, so that should be less of a factor, although it's really tricky to say. I've not seen any stats for BMW in terms of drag and speeds, so I can't say anything about them at all. The Mercedes' engine does have superior torque to the Ferrari unit, and it is also delivered in a very drivable way - one of a few reasons why the MP4-23 handles better in the wet than the F2008. It seems to me that there are two different ethoses that Ferrari and Mercedes have taken in designing their engines. Ferrari have gone for greater top-end speed at the expense of torque and low-speed drivability and Mercedes the reverse of that: i.e. slightly better acceleration in exchange for less top speed. The corollary of this is that McLaren-Mercedes think the MP4-23 superior mechanical grip will get them by, so they can afford to give away five to ten horsepower to Ferrari. If you look at McLaren's pace at Monza and their surprisingly good pace at some other so-called Ferrari tracks, I think they've got it right.

[f1s best fan]

although torro rosso is quicker now, when 2010 comes and the swith to manufactures only torro rosso could fade out leaving red bull no.1, thats why there moving vettel ther next year.

p.s vettel in a ferrari=