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#61583
It's a shame we can't bring John Hugenholtz back from the dead, he designed circuits like Zandvoort and Suzuka.

I was thinking the exact same thing. In my view, it's absolute disgrace on Formula One that Suzuka was dropped. Okay, it will be back next year and thereafter on alternating basis, but it should be the home of the Japanese Grand Prix or they should create an Pacific/Asian Grand Prix to accommodate it.
#61634
1999 Sepang International Circuit, Malaysia
2004 Bahrain International Circuit, Bahrain
2004 Shanghai International Circuit, China
2005 Istanbul Racing Circuit, Turkey
2008 Valencia Street Circuit, Spain
2008 Singapore Grand Prix, Singapore


Jesus look at that list (barring Singapore, don't know yet). How can one guy be responsible for so much dross?
#61636
1999 Sepang International Circuit, Malaysia
2004 Bahrain International Circuit, Bahrain
2004 Shanghai International Circuit, China
2005 Istanbul Racing Circuit, Turkey
2008 Valencia Street Circuit, Spain
2008 Singapore Grand Prix, Singapore


Jesus look at that list (barring Singapore, don't know yet). How can one guy be responsible for so much dross?


Don't forget he was behind revamping Fuji... and Nurburgring???
AND HOCKENHEIM!
#61638
1999 Sepang International Circuit, Malaysia
2004 Bahrain International Circuit, Bahrain
2004 Shanghai International Circuit, China
2005 Istanbul Racing Circuit, Turkey
2008 Valencia Street Circuit, Spain
2008 Singapore Grand Prix, Singapore


Jesus look at that list (barring Singapore, don't know yet). How can one guy be responsible for so much dross?


Don't forget he was behind revamping Fuji... and Nurburgring???
AND HOCKENHEIM!

Hockenheim, more like "Oh c0ck!"-enheim now. James May would probably like it as a result.
#61639
1999 Sepang International Circuit, Malaysia
2004 Bahrain International Circuit, Bahrain
2004 Shanghai International Circuit, China
2005 Istanbul Racing Circuit, Turkey
2008 Valencia Street Circuit, Spain
2008 Singapore Grand Prix, Singapore


Jesus look at that list (barring Singapore, don't know yet). How can one guy be responsible for so much dross?


Don't forget he was behind revamping Fuji... and Nurburgring???
AND HOCKENHEIM!

Hockenheim, more like "Oh c0ck!"-enheim now. James May would probably like it as a result.


lol lock him in the toilet and replace him with the stig... that always works. :rofl:
#61640
1999 Sepang International Circuit, Malaysia
2004 Bahrain International Circuit, Bahrain
2004 Shanghai International Circuit, China
2005 Istanbul Racing Circuit, Turkey
2008 Valencia Street Circuit, Spain
2008 Singapore Grand Prix, Singapore


Jesus look at that list (barring Singapore, don't know yet). How can one guy be responsible for so much dross?


Don't forget he was behind revamping Fuji... and Nurburgring???
AND HOCKENHEIM!

Hockenheim, more like "Oh c0ck!"-enheim now. James May would probably like it as a result.

How Hockenheim has been butchered is another shame on Formula One. :crying:
#61687
1999 Sepang International Circuit, Malaysia
2004 Bahrain International Circuit, Bahrain
2004 Shanghai International Circuit, China
2005 Istanbul Racing Circuit, Turkey
2008 Valencia Street Circuit, Spain
2008 Singapore Grand Prix, Singapore


Jesus look at that list (barring Singapore, don't know yet). How can one guy be responsible for so much dross?


Don't forget he was behind revamping Fuji... and Nurburgring???
AND HOCKENHEIM!

Hockenheim, more like "Oh c0ck!"-enheim now. James May would probably like it as a result.


Give over. Even though it's not the same as it used to be, Hockenheim isn't a bad track.
#61696
Hockenheim is ok, but it can't compare to the runs through the woods...
Just something about that track
If the current layout had been at a completely different venue id probably like it, but seeing it replaced the Banana
#61708
Give over. Even though it's not the same as it used to be, Hockenheim isn't a bad track.

I think you need to stop being so "lippy" as you have been recently on this forum. I said nothing about you calling me 'bitter' last night just for expressing a legitimate point of view - which is also what you are now criticising 7Up for doing.

Going to Hockenheim used to be exciting. It was a big challenge for the engineers in particular, it was also pretty tricky for the drivers, hearing the noise of the old V10/V12 engines screaming at maximum revs was amazing for the spectators, and seeing drivers get caught out in the stadium section due to wind, slightly different weather conditions or not adjusting to the contrast in the circuit's layout produced some interesting moments. What has Hockenheim got to offer now? Its technical challenge is gone, it's challenge to the drivers has been greatly reduced, the cars are not tested to their limits and the circuit feels clinical and sterile. Hockenheim has not produced a decent race since being carved up.
Last edited by McLaren Fan on 25 Aug 08, 23:22, edited 1 time in total.
#61722
Give over. Even though it's not the same as it used to be, Hockenheim isn't a bad track.

I think you need to stop being so "lippy" as you have been recently on this forum. I said nothing about you calling me 'bitter' last night just for expressing a legitimate point of view - which is also what you are now criticising 7Up for doing.

Going to Hockenheim used to be exciting. It was a big challenge for the engineers in particular, it was also pretty tricky for the drivers, hearing the noise of the old V10/V12 engines screaming at maximum revs was amazing for the spectators, and seeing drivers get caught out in the stadium section due to wind, slightly different weather conditions or not adjusting to the contrast in the circuit's layout produced some interesting moments. What has Hockenheim got to offer now? It's technical challenge is gone, it's challenge to the drivers has been greatly reduced, the cars are not tested to their limits and the circuit feels clinical and sterile. Hockenheim has not produced a decent race since being carved up.


Maybe my being "lippy" is brought about by some of the ridiculous complaints that are made around here. My calling you bitter was in direct relation to the following:

If McLaren had done something similar, I've no doubts a drive-through penalty would have been given in the race.


The impression that your post gave off was that, seeing as your team and its drivers had been screwed over by unjust rulings in the past, so it was perfectly fine for it to happen to others, which is clearly not the right attitude to have. Fair enough, if Massa had hit Sutil or caused him to smash in to the pit wall after the Force India had come across the front of the Ferrari and in to clear sight, then a ten place grid-drop at the next race for causing an avoidable accident would have been just, however seeing as nothing came of it, he did nothing that he could have otherwise avoided.

Everything around here seems to revolve around how either the FIA always seem to be out to get McLaren, how Tilke has destroyed the racing elements of Formula 1 or generally just all-out war between Ferrari and McLaren fans with people signing up purely to bash Hamilton and McLaren or else bash Ferrari, and it's quite out of hand. The reality of it is, the lower Formulae races that take place at Tilke tracks are exciting to watch, because the cars are more evenly matched, ergo the problem lies with the fact that there are such huge differences between cars in Formula 1. Sure, they may not be classic, loveable tracks like Spa, Monza, the old Hockenheim or Suzuka, but they only yield boring races in Formula 1 and that's pretty much fact. With budget capping and closer performance levels, as well as cars having the ability to follow each other closely, perhaps you'd get to see the Formula 1 races there bring far more excitement, but until that happens, you're going to be stuck with boring races at these venues, and mediocre races everywhere else unless it rains or there are huge amounts of crashes that bring out the safety car.

Then there's all this about how the FIA never drop a punishment on Ferrari. If this was the case, would team orders have been banned because Ferrari were using them at Austria that year? Would Raikkonen have been given that drive-through at Monaco for not having his tyres on at the three-minute mark? Would they have been ordered to change their tyres from intermediates to full wets last year at Japan (I think?) after 'disobeying' Charlie Whiting's email? Would Massa and the team even have come under investigation at this weekend's race?

Sure, I don't deny that there have been numerous occasions where they've really cocked up and helped Ferrari out or hindered McLaren in some way, but this year the only undeserved penalties I've seen are the one that Bourdais was given for 'blocking' Heidfeld, which relates to neither McLaren nor Ferrari, and the several drive-throughs given for people being forced to pit for fuel whilst the pit lane is close or else face coming to a halt on-track. The paranoia is there, but so far this season it has been quite unwarranted.

So yeah, you could argue that I'm being "lippy", but the reality is I'm just pissed off at some of the attitudes adopted around here without necessity. Some of the name-calling and pointless bitching that seems to drag every thread down. Just take a look at any thread that has any relation to Lewis. Any thread that refers, even indirectly, to last year's spy scandal. Or any thread posted about any penalty given to McLaren. It's all over the place and it pretty much drags the mood down, and I know I'm not the only one who is irritated by it.
#61733
The impression that your post gave off was that, seeing as your team and its drivers had been screwed over by unjust rulings in the past, so it was perfectly fine for it to happen to others, which is clearly not the right attitude to have. Fair enough, if Massa had hit Sutil or caused him to smash in to the pit wall after the Force India had come across the front of the Ferrari and in to clear sight, then a ten place grid-drop at the next race for causing an avoidable accident would have been just, however seeing as nothing came of it, he did nothing that he could have otherwise avoided.

Well, I'm afraid you didn't read my post properly. If you had read it properly, you would have noticed an explanation about how I felt Ferrari had breached rule 23.1 (i) of the sporting regulations. If McLaren were to have done the same, I would still be saying exactly the same thing: the team broke the rules and should have received a drive-through problem. My thinking that Ferrari should have got penalised is nothing to do with me not supporting Ferrari or thinking its fine to harshly punish them because McLaren frequently get the s*** end of the stick.

Again, I have to laugh at your explanation for no punishment being given. Yes, nothing did happen, but it could have done, which is why the rule is there! Why do you think that hoax calls to the emergency services are illegal? Because the emergency services would be attending the hoax and, thus, may not able to attend a genuine emergency, should one arise, thus risking lives. Just because the emergency services managed to reach the scene of a real emergency or just because a real emergency didn't crop up does not come into the equation.
#61738
The impression that your post gave off was that, seeing as your team and its drivers had been screwed over by unjust rulings in the past, so it was perfectly fine for it to happen to others, which is clearly not the right attitude to have. Fair enough, if Massa had hit Sutil or caused him to smash in to the pit wall after the Force India had come across the front of the Ferrari and in to clear sight, then a ten place grid-drop at the next race for causing an avoidable accident would have been just, however seeing as nothing came of it, he did nothing that he could have otherwise avoided.

Well, I'm afraid you didn't read my post properly. If you had read it properly, you would have noticed an explanation about how I felt Ferrari had breached rule 23.1 (i) of the sporting regulations. If McLaren were to have done the same, I would still be saying exactly the same thing: the team broke the rules and should have received a drive-through problem. My thinking that Ferrari should have got penalised is nothing to do with me not supporting Ferrari or thinking its fine to harshly punish them because McLaren frequently get the s*** end of the stick.

Again, I have to laugh at your explanation for no punishment being given. Yes, nothing did happen, but it could have done, which is why the rule is there! Why do you think that hoax calls to the emergency services are illegal? Because the emergency services would be attending the hoax and, thus, may not able to attend a genuine emergency, should one arise, thus risking lives. Just because the emergency services managed to reach the scene of a real emergency or just because a real emergency didn't crop up does not come into the equation.


I read your post as properly as was possible. However, it's the way you used McLaren as your example, rather than saying any other team, that gave off the impression that you were, once again, complaining about the FIA's Ferrari-bias. If you were not, then I apologise to you, but from where I stand (taking neither team's side in the ever-lasting battle) that's just how it looked.

And I'm not saying it's because nothing happened. Something did happen - a risk was created. However, these are two different things, the scenarios described being caused by two different parties. The first (the unsafe release, that is) being caused by the person (or, as was the case, electronic system) releasing the car, the second by the driver. I do not disagree that a penalty should be given, however you have to match the type (and recipient) to the situation. Looking at where the blame lies is important. The team let Massa go, and he clearly didn't see Sutil until Sutil's car was rolling past, in which case he took a different line and backed off. Had he not done so, he would have hit the car and caused an incident. I just think that, in order to be as fair as possible, you have to think carefully about where the blame lies. Perhaps I'm wrong about it, but that's the way I feel. It's harsh to penalise a lot of people for something that only a couple of people have actually done wrong. :/
#61753
i dont think you should be so harsh on him, street circuits he can only design with what is there to work with from the city layout.


Exactly. Yes, Valencia was pretty dull, but it's not as though the guy could just tell them to bulldoze everything and start from scratch.

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