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[sagi58]

Here's one for the courts to debate:

When an employee has an idea that is dismissed by the company he works for,
is the idea his intellectual property??

[stonemonkey]

No idea, I'd guess maybe with some secrets acts and maybe some NDAs but in general it'd be pretty tough to stop someone having the same idea twice unless there's patents involved. But that really is just me guessing.

Is there any relevance to the topic?

[Michael1990]

Let's not forget that people can make mistakes. Even IT personnel!
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[overboost]

An IT mistake? Could be but they are anal about the security thing.

How he was able to access the data isn't really the issue though will be of concern to Mercedes, it's what he did with it. It's alleged that he searched for the data, copied it to his own personal storage and then tried to cover his tracks by defragging his drive and overwriting with innocuous data.

Theft is theft no matter if the item has been left in easy reach or not. Could a shoplifter use the defence of 'it was just sitting on a shelf not locked away'? Maybe not theft in the eyes of the law in this case, I don't know, but from a contractual point of view within Mercedes it would be seen as such and very much in breach of contract.

If he's innocent then he'll be the one doing the suing but there's no sign of that yet.

I think that Merc though is very interested in how he was able to access the data. They will be searching every corner of their organization for an accomplice or accomplices. They will try hard to leverage Hoyle with a the threat of huge legal costs, rumored to be $100,000, to find his friend.

[overboost]

So you are pointing out that design infringement is not a legal issue, you may or may not be correct, however infringement is not at issue in this action. It is the theft of the files/property which is the point of Mercedes accusations and theft is a crime.

If Merc has had files stolen then they just need to go to the cops and let them deal with it! Simple.

Companies and their employees should be aware that the person who has unlawfully taken the confidential information may be subject to both civil and criminal sanctions.
(it would become criminal if he had obtained personal data)

On the civil side, often the most effective remedy is to obtain an injunction (with or without giving notice to the individual responsible) to secure and recover the stolen confidential information and any evidence of its unlawful misuse.

This is the route Mercedes are going down, like I said if Benjamin Hoyle implicates Ferrari then legal precedent has been set
it matters not if Ron Dennis is a or not.

Hey 'Freddie', I had said that Merc was dirty not Dennis. Although you are right about Dennis.

And now Merc is saying it can't cope with 21 races in 2016. Most likely that can't cope with even more losses ($120M in 2014 and probably more this season) that an extended season will bring. All they want is a short, non-competitive formula and they are willing to whine and stamp their feet until they get their way!

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... -calendar/

edit: Merc have backed off on their claims regarding Ferrari in a statement issued today. Obviously they overstepped.

"The investigation has shown no reason to believe that information has been transferred to Ferrari nor have any of the court documents made any allegation regarding any inappropriate conduct by Ferrari."

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/143 ... legal-case

[sagi58]

...Is there any relevance to the topic?

Yup!! IF the idea/premise Hoyle had in his possession was one he proposed
and which was dismissed by Mercedes, for whatever reason, then I was just
wondering if it wasn't his to take.

[sagi58]

Let's not forget that people can make mistakes. Even IT personnel!

Agreed!!

It's not impossible that IT was supposed to terminate Hoyle's
access to certain files; but, for whatever reason they didn't.

I know our IT department is always inundated with all sorts of
requests and they get backlogged pretty quickly.

Requests have even been known to get lost in the shuffle!!

[stonemonkey]

...Is there any relevance to the topic?

Yup!! IF the idea/premise Hoyle had in his possession was one he proposed
and which was dismissed by Mercedes, for whatever reason, then I was just
wondering if it wasn't his to take.

You can't unlearn things and you take your expertise and knowledge wherever you go, that's accepted in F1 and is the reason for gardening leave, so no one potentially moving to a rival team has the most recent work even just in their heads.

What is this idea/premise you mention?

[Bad Freddie]

And now Merc is saying it can't cope with 21 races in 2016. Most likely that can't cope with even more losses ($120M in 2014 and probably more this season) that an extended season will bring. All they want is a short, non-competitive formula and they are willing to whine and stamp their feet until they get their way!

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... -calendar/

Are Mercedes the only ones complaining ?

It would appear not !

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/12/15/ferrari-like-mercedes-unhappy-with-21-race-calendar/
http://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-news/marchionne-teams-need-money-21-races/

and as for whining and feet stamping

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/35103892

Truly Overdosed

[sagi58]

...Is there any relevance to the topic?

Yup!! IF the idea/premise Hoyle had in his possession was one he proposed
and which was dismissed by Mercedes, for whatever reason, then I was just
wondering if it wasn't his to take.

You can't unlearn things and you take your expertise and knowledge wherever you go, that's accepted in F1 and is the reason for gardening leave, so no one potentially moving to a rival team has the most recent work even just in their heads.

What is this idea/premise you mention?

Sort of... I was thinking more along the lines of having an innovative thought
and having it dismissed by the team you're working with. IF you choose to
take that idea with you to a different company, and that company develops
it, who "owns" the rights to it? The person who had the idea or the company
for whom they worked but who dismissed it?

[sagi58]

Are Mercedes the only ones complaining ?

It would appear not !

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/12/15/ferrari-like-mercedes-unhappy-with-21-race-calendar/
http://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-news/marchionne-teams-need-money-21-races/

and as for whining and feet stamping ...

Ahem... you might like to start a new thread for that particular discussion,
as it really doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand...

[sagi58]

Let's get back on topic, shall we?

Lawrence Barretto wrote:">Ferrari not involved in legal case over F1 data, Mercedes says

Investigations by Mercedes suggest no confidential information and data alleged to have been taken by engineer Benjamin Hoyle has been transferred to Formula 1 rival Ferrari.

It emerged last week that Mercedes is taking legal action against Hoyle ahead of a planned new-year move to Ferrari.

But Mercedes has made it clear that it does not believe any information has made its way to Ferrari, adding it does not believe the Scuderia had any involvement.

"The investigation has shown no reason to believe that information has been transferred to Ferrari nor have any of the court documents made any allegation regarding any inappropriate conduct by Ferrari," said Mercedes in a statement....

...Speaking about the engineer in question on Monday, Ferrari president Sergio Marchionne said: "He has not been recruited yet.

"There was an English lawyer who tried to do some sort of leaks, but there is no case, no situation.

"This person isn't even recruited yet so really this is something about nothing.

[Bad Freddie]

Are Mercedes the only ones complaining ?

It would appear not !

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/12/15/ferrari-like-mercedes-unhappy-with-21-race-calendar/
http://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-news/marchionne-teams-need-money-21-races/

and as for whining and feet stamping ...

Ahem... you might like to start a new thread for that particular discussion,
as it really doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand... :thumb up:

Just replying to somebody in this thread

If you want to start a new thread feel free, but until you're a moderator ill continue to ignore you thanks.

[sagi58]

...until you're a moderator ill continue to ignore you thanks.

Touche'! Consider the favour returned in kind!

[overboost]

Are Mercedes the only ones complaining ?

It would appear not !

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/12/15/ferrari-like-mercedes-unhappy-with-21-race-calendar/
http://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-news/marchionne-teams-need-money-21-races/

and as for whining and feet stamping

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/35103892

Truly Overdosed

Not buying it BadF.

Ferrari is just taking care of business.

They are looking out for all the teams by pointing out that Bernie needs to put up more money.
They are looking out for themselves by putting Bernie/Todt on notice that they just can't decide to change the rules. Sorry but their veto is a reality.

Meanwhile we have Mercedes crying and saying that they are too tired and "I am not sure we can actually cope". Pure whining. Suck it up guys, it's your job.

Truly sad Freddie.