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#432855
In the words of wise one:

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Perhaps you could persuade the wise one to sign up and come to have a go - at debating F1 facts, maybe bring some much needed philosophical rendering of the Alonso connundrum :rofl:

You talk about debating facts, yet you like to make frequent remarks to how Alonso is helped by his team mates, to support your argument that Hamilton is the better driver. I will give you Piquet, that is proven, but Massa crashing into Hamilton to benefit Alonso? I don't see any proof or evidence of that, do you have any proof of that other than the radio message? which could be Smedley's way to fire up Massa to chase and overtake Hamilton! If there was proof the FIA would have taken action in much the same way as they did against Briatore and Piquet Jr.

Ultimately, it's all excuses to back your (in generality) favorite driver, it's like comparing an apple to a rock; two drivers in different cars, the only way this can be settled is to have them race head to head in the same machinery. You like to point out that Hamilton has better achievements in half the timeframe, the flip side of that is that Hamilton has never driven for a smaller, less funded team, furthermore you can argue that Alonso won his championships in a car that was not the best on the grid, I distinctly remember a report about those titles being the cheapest (as in cost) in comparison to Renault's title rivals. Finally, Hamilton matched Alonso in the McLaren and it now seems like he was preferred as the season progressed, disadvantaging Alonso.

My point is that there are pros and cons to call each driver the best; I think Alonso is in his prime now, I believe that physical age has nothing to do with performance, I think the way that Alonso whitewashed his team mate last season is proof of that, was Raikkonen really that bad or was Alonso outstanding to drag his Ferrari into positions where it shouldn't be?
#432856
Ok, I'll admit that the Massa evidence is circumstantial, but valid in the presentation of an opinion.

And I agree that Alonso and Hamilton will be seen as the best depending on the viewpoint

However, my point remains largely unanswered, and that is the cause of the gulf in results between them. Anyone can say Alonso is more talented and give an argument. However to say Alonso is more talented, and then to point to Hamilton underachieving due to, for example a focus on celebrity, would be wholly incomplete without addressing why Alonso has inferior tangible results in a longer career.

Its not about having having cars not good enough. He spent 5 years in a Ferrari that challenged, he spent a year in a Macca that challenged, he spent years in a Renault that challenged. The Renault he won in was the best car with a regulatory trick advantage - mass dampers. There is no argument for not having good cars.

Ok he spent the first couple of years in a back grid car, however even comparing the period 2007 to date Lewis has vastly superior results. Therefore he has underachieved even more than Lewis especially if he has more ability. When we factor the head to head in 2007, we saw that Lewis was better all round, with maybe setup experience the only place he lagged

For me the evidence points to Lewis more talented and with better race craft. Alonso maybe more cautious and more interested in the result than the racing. But they are both heads above the others. Between them there is absolutely no factual evidence that Alonso is more talented or better, but thats not a deal breaker, he could be just very unlucky etc, however to start saying he is better and then say Lewis has underachieved veers a little into irrationality, and thats when a closer look at the facts that create this impression must look at the advanatges he has had over Lewis every year wrt crashing teammates etc
#432857
I am not saying Alonso is better or Hamilton is better, I feel that they are equal overall, it's too close to call. In championship capable cars, it wouldn't surprise me to see both drivers ending up with 4 or 5 titles each. The only year I feel Hamilton lost his way was 2011 when he was beaten by Button convincingly in terms to final WDC position, other than that, Hamilton has been fairly consistent, in much the same way Alonso has. I'm not a fan of either driver personally, so I have no allegiance either way, so maybe I can play devils advocate a little easier.

From a personal point of view, I would love to see Alonso and Hamilton in the Mercedes, I guarantee it would be a better battle than Hamilton/Rosberg.
#432862
If we base stuff on results, then Vettel will clearly come out on top. . .

I also think its an unfair exaggeration to say the Ferrari challenged for 5 years.

Do you have any evidence about Alonso being rejected by 5 teams before he went to Mclaren, or being sacked from Ferrari or Renault?
#432863
Obv :wavey: iously it's all a subjective decision, and as outsiders we only have a limited amount of (biased) 3rd party information to go on, but I guess thats just part of the fun.

I think it's Alonso v Hamilton in terms of best "most proven" drivers. If suddenly all drivers were unallocated seats, and the team principles had a free choice for their preferred picks, it'd be between Hamilton and Alonso IMO. Reading quotes etc. from people in the paddock also tends to reflect this strongly.

Between Hamilton and Alonso, I'd say actually, it's head v heart.

Hamilton is heart, he drives because he enjoys it, he likes to feel his way through things and get on with it and wears his heart on his sleeve. And of course, is very fast.

Alonso, is head, he's driven and calculating , DC once said he imagines Alonso brushes his teeth in the shower, and I think that's accurate; Alonso is a metrome, he'll come at you with everything he has. Obviously he has plenty of natural talent too. But I think that also ends up being his weakness, sometimes he over thinks stuff, overcomplicates it all. Tries to make sure the stars are align. I'd say Hamilton takes a simpler standpoint(I'm not insulting Hamilton here, just describing my perspective of their perspectives with things).

Let's put it this way. If they both drove a 5-door hatchback, primarily for the school run and to carry the shopping. Alonso will be the guy who checks his tyres etc. every trip, gets in the car, adjusts the seat, mirrors every time and pulls over at the slightest sign of a fault. Hamilton will get in there and drive it, listening to the engine to decide if it'll break down or not.

TBH, I think Hamilton is probably the net faster driver. Alonso claws his way up into the elite of current F1 drivers through sheer persistence.

But of course, you can't just separate out the driver, your on track ability has variables not just linked to innate talent, it's all really about the optimum intergration of driver with car and the team as a whole unit. So a drivers ability in that sense, I think should also be validly recognised.


Wow a non-Hamilton fan with some serious reasoning capability! A rare commodity. :yikes:



What, you think non-Hamilton fans are uneducated plebs? :whip::wink: (Light hearted comment).
#432866
If we base stuff on results, then Vettel will clearly come out on top. . .


We have moved to a finer granular level of discussion and are not just basing stuff on results - we have evolved to discussing why the results of 2 drivers are different, yet its only one that is said to have underachieved by the same ones saying he is more talented than the other. Vettel obviously cant drive an inferior car or adapt as well, therefore there is no mystery as to why he is not in this particular discourse, as it is very simple to explain the anomaly in his results
I also think its an unfair exaggeration to say the Ferrari challenged for 5 years.

might be unfair, but how can it be an exaggeration :confused: Was Alonso not challenging till the end in most of those years or not? If he was he didnt do it on foot
Do you have any evidence about Alonso being rejected by 5 teams before he went to Mclaren,


1 -
Asked by Sky Sports F1 if Alonso had ever been a consideration by Mercedes for 2015, Lauda replied: "No. Confirmed: we have Lewis and we have Nico. They are on the front-row of the grid [in Japan], why should we change anything?

"For us it's clear because we never even discussed with him [Alonso] because Lewis has a contract for next year and Nico has two more years."

2,3 -
The Red Bull Formula 1 team never considered Fernando Alonso as a replacement for Sebastian Vettel, team boss Christian Horner has revealed.

With Vettel having told Red Bull on Friday night at Suzuka that he wanted to leave for Ferrari, his outfit wasted little time in moving for Toro Rosso's Daniil Kvyat as his replacement.

4-
Q: Did Williams ever contemplate the idea of taking on Fernando Alonso?
CW: No. We are very happy with the drivers that we have - and we had them on contract anyway for next year. They have delivered - why would you change that? They are part of our future.

5 -
Lotus really was one of Fernando Alonso's options for the 2015 season, team owner Gerard Lopez has admitted.

6 - Force India confirmed their drivers rather than leave a door opened as did Sauber

or being sacked from Ferrari or Renault?


i dont have the letter sent by the teams HR department, but the 'left by mutual consent' is active each time and is the standard in any industry when contract terminations are negotiated, if you are not happy with that you could show how Renault, Ferrari and Mclaren demonstrated their pleasure at his remaining onboard
#432869
To be turned down / rejected, Alonso would have had to apply, I don't see teams sticking with what they have as a rejection. These quotes look like the motorsport press asking questions rather than Alonso being turned down per se. Remember because of the early announcement that Alonso was leaving Ferrari, there was a lot of speculation, so reporters were going up and down the grid asking team principles if they were interested in signing Alonso.

Being fired is a long way from leaving by mutual consent, I see mutual consent like a no fault divorce, it isn't working out for either party so they decided to part ways amicably.
#432874
Totally reasonably if somewhat generous way of seeing the recurring pattern of Alonso, leaving one team, chased by all, yet still arriving at a team that is not subsequently recognised as top team/top driver benchmark as generally happens in sports

Another way to look the pattern is to wonder why the best driver is replaced by a lesser one on (allegedly) double the wage. And then we would ofcourse be negligent not to notice that when he left Renault, McLaren and Ferrari, lots of insiders subsequently suggested he had been responsible for causing factions, rifts and they would find it easier to advance.

http://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-news/ex-ferrari-boss-points-finger-alonso/
http://formulaspy.com/formula-1/formula-1-news/former-ferrari-designer-blames-alonso-years-failure-10084
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/f1/293283-renault-alonso-blame-poor-09-season.html
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/f1/258773-bigger-scandal-spygate-crashgate.html
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/motor/formula1/2007-09-14-alonso-implicated_N.htm
http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2014/10/deal-with-devil.html
http://www.gptoday.com/details/view/232100/McLarenAlonso_rift_caused_Hamilton_crash/?fsdetails
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/off-topic/1814132-f1-alonso-tried-to-blackmail-mclaren-with-scandal-evidence.html
http://formulaspy.com/top-news/alonso-knew-crashgate-plans-says-massa-2425
http://www.drivesouth.co.nz/news/13668/renault-scandal-stuns-even-jaded-f1-fans
http://www.thescuderia.net/forums/showthread.php/27514-Alonso-s-face-turns-red-after-Vettel-crashgate-joke?s=81b5773612a595791caf105e5262cc9e
http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/f1-another-alonso-mclaren-mess-in-2015?artid=173618
(this is my favourite)
http://www.formula1nexus.com/is-fernando-alonso-a-saboteur/

Therefore it is a valid supposition that the pattern is not a coincidence which would lave the logical conclusion he was technically fired each time

As far as the teams not rejecting him by not been in active negotiation, an implicit rejection is outlined by the fact Alonso himself said he had all these choice and indeed hinted several times at specific teams interested in him, hints and cryptic references to RBR, Merc, Williams etc therefore creating the grounds for an implicit rejection by each confirmation that he had never been considered. So if we decided alonso was telling the truth when hinting - then it was a rejection in each case, and if Alonso was lying about been of interest then its even more of a rejection

The phrases 'baggage', and 'politicking outweighing on track excellence' and 'risky' bandied in the press did not draw claims of gross unfairness

p.s great thing about sports is that non of the above detracts from the unique entertainment he provides on track in any car that even has a sniff at winning, its indeed pure poetry how one man can be so persistent an efficient and with such a supreme and almost sublime sense of entitlement

Would actually like to see him in the Merc along with Lewis in 2017 after Lewis has exploited his completeness as a driver and is ready for a right ding dong scrap with the Spaniard
#432887
Since we like statistics so much, let's take a look at the last three years
to see how the TPs voted and the percentage of points received.

# of Team Principals 11 X (25 + 18 + 15 + 12 + 10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 2 + 1) total points awarded: 1111
Hamilton (WDC): 17.5%
Alonso: 14% (-3.5%)
Vettel: 5% (-12.5%)


I like space travel a lot, but I am not so thick that I would start pretending I know who to make it work

10 TPs voted in 2014
# of Team Principals 10 X (25 + 18 + 15 + 12 + 10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 2 + 1) total points awarded: 1010
Hamilton (WDC): 19%
Alonso: 15.3% (-4%)

So I wont bother to continue any simple arithmetic as i am sure it should be obvious even to boycott that a full wit is always better than half and i will happily leave you two to combine forces to discuss the merits of MS' hospital bedside engine design setup :thumbup:


Touche'... there were 11 teams on the grid; but, only 10 TPs voted since Caterham wasn't included ("due to multiple changes of management").

By the way, even that "simple arithmetic" error, doesn't change any of the facts that I listed, namely:

Those numbers tell us that, per the Team Principals, Alonso is the best current driver, for a number of reasons.

* Alonso has been voted one of the top two for the past three years.
* Alonso has lost out the top spot by less than 5% of the points allotted.
* Alonso has been voted top driver, in spite of not being WDC.
* Alonso has been voted second, in spite of not being runner up WDC.
#432890
nice come back sagi - at least you have more balls than the other yardsticks

perhaps you missed the part about F1 drivers only been as good as their last race, I even explained how Kimi was seen as an MS basher a FEW YEARS AGO, only to be discounted when it comes to talk of great drivers

So Lewis (who is younger than Alonso) and has served his rookie and fledgling periods at a lesser team (just like Alonso) is now the best as confirmed by the TPs, and by a high consensus margin.

See, out of 10 tps who voted, he has an average of 19 points per race, which means the consensus TP believes he is the clear winner (above 18 points for second place), and as we all prefer to watch current races rather than history, the 10 most important arbiters of form and talent (and ofcourse chequebook friendliness) imply the clear answer to this threads premise

This clear consensus ( first place by all, and the next guy - 3rd place) is easily overlooked by excitable boycotters, but I am sure anyone deciding to analyse the Autosport TPs CONSENSUS over the years will now be motivated to digdeep and produce some MEANINGFUL inference from the data, beyond 'cut and paste and hope for the best'

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