FORUMula1.com

[What's Burning?]

OB blames Mercedes stifling competition for Ferrari starting late on their 2015 car.

[CookinFlat6]

OB blames GoPro for causing MS' accident and preventing him from developing the 2015 Ferrari on the ski slopes

[overboost]

It isn't 'their engine freeze', it's limited development that was agreed by all. But Ferrari and renault can't manage the limited development on offer. How on earth do you expect them to cope in a free for all?

But fair do's to renault, I haven't heard whinning and moaning from them, they seem to be trying to get to grips with their shortcomings.

And the reason Mercedes started their engine so early was because they had Brawn and Brawn had a plan. He ran the hybrid programme with a completely different team alongside the racing team. Mercedes also realised how Important it was yo work closely with the oil/petrol people( Petronas) . I was laughed at when I posted an article about that by a now absent member, told it would make little difference, yet renault and Ferrari are now realising it does make a difference....but they're a little late to the party. It's no good blaming Merc for other engine manufacturers shortfalls. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

Well by default it has become Mercedes engine freeze as most every one else involved, McLaren/Honda, Renault, Ferrari, non-merc customer teams, race promoters, BE, CVC, FIA even, all have lost interest in this failed idea! They want to move forward to bring back competition, some parity and life to F1. As well not many fans are wanting to watch cars with a 2 second a lap advantage cruise to win every race.

And if Merc is so confident then why wouldn't they allow the rules to be changed to allow for competition and in season engine updates? They are the ones looking afraid of a little 'heat'. I think it would do them alot of good to want to race without rule protection, their reputation would improve and their victories would mean more. I find their thinking to be very shortsighted.

[overboost]

And then you have a team that have been around second longest with another real world comment, Ron says reliability is their key to compete, nothing about engine freezes or unfair competition because of using a driver to test V6 parts in the V8 days. Indeed Ron says the performance is impressive. Maybe Merc should complain about reliability as Ferrari were very reliable, thats hardly fair now on Merc or Honda when Ferrari have such an advantage

And over in lalaland, when the media or the opiated fans are not looking, no ones blaming the engine regs or claiming they were held back from competing, infact they are even admiting they have messed up 2015 as well ALL BY THEMSELVES

Actually McLaren/Honda are saying just those things. The freeze is disallowing competition. The freeze is holding them back and without it there would be some catch up by the other teams. See below!

McLaren racing director Eric Boullier insists it is in the best interest of Formula 1 to allow Mercedes' rivals to catch up in the engine department.

Boullier, whose team will use Honda power next year after switching from Mercedes, thinks it is essential that the rules are unfrozen in order for Formula 1 to have proper competition.

"Doing something that will stupidly increase the costs is not what we want to achieve," said Boullier.

"But it's a competition and we can change the cars as much as we want."

"Within the regulations, I think engines should be frozen once every manufacturer has been able to develop their engines."

"If you disallow the competition, then this goes a against the spirit of the sport."

"They benefited from the fact that they did a very good job and they benefited from the fact that the regulations are locked with the engines being frozen," he added.

"Most of the gains they have had come from the engine and they will for a couple of years until everybody can match them in terms of development."

"This is what they are benefiting from and if you could unfreeze the engine regs, you will see some catch up."

[What's Burning?]

[CookinFlat6]

[racechick]

It isn't 'their engine freeze', it's limited development that was agreed by all. But Ferrari and renault can't manage the limited development on offer. How on earth do you expect them to cope in a free for all?

But fair do's to renault, I haven't heard whinning and moaning from them, they seem to be trying to get to grips with their shortcomings.

And the reason Mercedes started their engine so early was because they had Brawn and Brawn had a plan. He ran the hybrid programme with a completely different team alongside the racing team. Mercedes also realised how Important it was yo work closely with the oil/petrol people( Petronas) . I was laughed at when I posted an article about that by a now absent member, told it would make little difference, yet renault and Ferrari are now realising it does make a difference....but they're a little late to the party. It's no good blaming Merc for other engine manufacturers shortfalls. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

Well by default it has become Mercedes engine freeze as most every one else involved, McLaren/Honda, Renault, Ferrari, non-merc customer teams, race promoters, BE, CVC, FIA even, all have lost interest in this failed idea! They want to move forward to bring back competition, some parity and life to F1. As well not many fans are wanting to watch cars with a 2 second a lap advantage cruise to win every race.

And if Merc is so confident then why wouldn't they allow the rules to be changed to allow for competition and in season engine updates? They are the ones looking afraid of a little 'heat'. I think it would do them alot of good to want to race without rule protection, their reputation would improve and their victories would mean more. I find their thinking to be very shortsighted.

I think you'll find you're wrong...........with most of that. MERC won WITHIN the rules, Horner and Ferrari are crying. They are the ones wanting rule changes, they are the failures. And why should Merc agree to rule changes for slackers? They shouldn't .

[The Second Coming]

And if Merc is so confident then why wouldn't they allow the rules to be changed to allow for competition and in season engine updates? They are the ones looking afraid of a little 'heat'. I think it would do them alot of good to want to race without rule protection, their reputation would improve and their victories would mean more. I find their thinking to be very shortsighted.

And when Merc agree, allowing themselves the benefit of being able to update their own engines...emm, put another way, the others gain some power unit boosts, bringing them closer to the Mercedes 2014 performance, whilst Mercedes gains another 95hp and another giant leap forward, will we still be having this conversation about unfreezing. For every step and gain the others make, Mercedes will too, equaling or better on those gains. That old saying, "Be careful what you ask for..." (It just might bite you on the bollocks!)

Such fun indeed.

[sagi58]

The salient difference being that at least no one has to show up on the grid with their hands tied
behind their backs and be expected to race the whole season without the opportunity to improve.

Just out of curiousity, are there any Mercedes fans who could honestly say they would be OK with
this situation if the shoe were on the other foot? Somehow I doubt that very much.

[What's Burning?]

[sagi58]

[CookinFlat6]

[The Second Coming]

Just out of curiousity, are there any Mercedes fans who could honestly say they would be OK with
this situation if the shoe were on the other foot? Somehow I doubt that very much.

The shoe was on the other foot. The years of McLaren dominance. Williams. Ferrari. Red Bull. And sprinkled in there, the one dominant year of the untouchable Brawn. At the end of the day, this whole conversation is about dominance...this time, the focus is engine performance. Williams was a chassis domination. So was Red Bull. McLaren and Ferrari were both "package" (engine/chassis/driver). Today, most refuse to admit this is also a package issue...engine/chassis/driver. Yes, the Mercedes engine is mega but if you look at the customer teams, they didn't have the same level of performance on every circuit the way Mercedes AMG did. Sure, Williams shun on certain tracks that suited their sleek aero-friendly chassis but then they faltered on the tight and twisty bits.

So Sagi, yes I was OK with the dominance of other teams during their time, even at the peril of my own fav team and driver. Historically, that's what F1 has always been. It's Mercedes' turn. (And to think, there is a weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth over one season. Really people? Really...one season?) If Mercedes run away with this thing for the next six years, come and talk with me then. I might, just might change my tune. Until then...such fun!

[CookinFlat6]

Its so funny yet sad that it could be a stage drama for all the family at christmas

Red Bull built their whole chassis and tweaked Renault engine to exploit the last Aero era. No one could compete as the RBR floor and its flexy bits were too well integrated to be pinned down. They used the under powered part of the Renault engine to bring engine mapping trickery the others could not use, and at the same time they kept the much better fuel usage part of the Renault engine. This type of unlevel playing field kept them in trinkets for 4 years with other unable to catch up, oh I forgot to mention the amount of money they spent whilst Merc, Sauber, Marusia, HRT, Caterham and Williams were nobly sticking to the RRA ( that Ferrari and RBR torpedoed by stabbing the rest in the back and then killing Fota)

Did Merc or its fans moan and b!tch without even bothering to go and learn about different engine regs and different engine parts and specs???

Nope they were too busy preparing for the next opportunity that F1 provides every few years (regulatory era change) and they aced it even better than RBR did the last aero one in 2009, and better than Fer...actually scrap that, Ferrari have never been organised enough to plan ahead and ace anything, they always rely on vetos and the as yet undefined 'extra help' Bernie has confirmed they get on top of the 90 mill and the veto on rules etc, as well as having their ex TPs head FIA and maybe FOM as well. And true to form Ferraris president confirms that they were too busy trying to cheat off track to actually try do any COMPETITIVENESS for 2015 and so they have to write off the year

Any guess who is cleverly preparing for the next reg era shift already, while the others are still moaning and trying to go back in time????

Clue - they already got their towels on the best seats by the pool for the after party in AbuDhabi 2020

Its quality comedy

[overboost]

It isn't 'their engine freeze', it's limited development that was agreed by all. But Ferrari and renault can't manage the limited development on offer. How on earth do you expect them to cope in a free for all?

But fair do's to renault, I haven't heard whinning and moaning from them, they seem to be trying to get to grips with their shortcomings.

And the reason Mercedes started their engine so early was because they had Brawn and Brawn had a plan. He ran the hybrid programme with a completely different team alongside the racing team. Mercedes also realised how Important it was yo work closely with the oil/petrol people( Petronas) . I was laughed at when I posted an article about that by a now absent member, told it would make little difference, yet renault and Ferrari are now realising it does make a difference....but they're a little late to the party. It's no good blaming Merc for other engine manufacturers shortfalls. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

Well by default it has become Mercedes engine freeze as most every one else involved, McLaren/Honda, Renault, Ferrari, non-merc customer teams, race promoters, BE, CVC, FIA even, all have lost interest in this failed idea! They want to move forward to bring back competition, some parity and life to F1. As well not many fans are wanting to watch cars with a 2 second a lap advantage cruise to win every race.

And if Merc is so confident then why wouldn't they allow the rules to be changed to allow for competition and in season engine updates? They are the ones looking afraid of a little 'heat'. I think it would do them alot of good to want to race without rule protection, their reputation would improve and their victories would mean more. I find their thinking to be very shortsighted.

I think you'll find you're wrong...........with most of that. MERC won WITHIN the rules, Horner and Ferrari are crying. They are the ones wanting rule changes, they are the failures. And why should Merc agree to rule changes for slackers? They shouldn't .

Of course you are absolutely right, Merc won within the rules. I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. They worked hard on their engine and it payed dividends in winning them both championships.

The rules are the problem. These rules protected a Merc 2 second/lap advantage virtually for the whole season and cemented a special tier at the top of the grid just for Mercedes. Unheard of really in a sport where a tenth of a second advantage will provide more than enough for a race win.

The rules produced a dull, predictable F1 season in 2014 and due to Mercedes blocking reasonable engine rule updates it looks like 2015 will be the same. And here we are long before preseason testing has even started and we already know which team will be wcc and who will win the wdc. Not much value in it imo if the other teams are held back.

2016 and the new engine format is a long way off but at least it will bring hope of a competitive F1 post 2015.