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[sagi58]

As was already pointed out, just how much does either driver owe his team and/or his teammate?

IMHO a driver owes his team mate nothing.

Beg to differ....Michael Schumacher owed his teammates at Ferrari PLENTY.

NONE of his teammates at Ferrari were ever in Schumi's league.
As such, they were team players. Period.

p.s. of course, that won't mean anything to anyone who doesn't
understand the concept/philosophy that the team comes first.

[What's Burning?]

This being close to the championship deal has gotten me thinking a bit about Lewis' last championship efforts. It's been a long time since I last found myself in that position so I'm feeling very introspective. In 2007 for a rookie to come in and match (technically beat) a two time WDC is pretty damned impressive. But it brings me to my second point.

Seeing as Massa with the exception of 2008 has never been anywhere near the front again. Then seeing the type of precision surgical equipment Kimi needs in order to perform. The 2007 and 2008 machines Ferrari put on the grid, must have been spectacular.

Those Ferraris were the best cars on the grid. They were the most complete cars -fast, good on tyres, good traction, very drivable and reliable - Designed by a certain Aldo Costa who is showing us at Merc that it was no coincidence.

Very interesting conclusion, there!! Since what you essentially admitted to is that the Mercedes,
designed by Aldo Costa this year, is the sort of "complete car" that both Hamilton and Rosberg make
them look as good as the Ferraris designed by him which made Kimi and Massa look good!

That would be a brilliant conclusion had we not seen Lewis win races riding a dog. Who knew, but apparently not everyone has that same skill. In any case, I'm so happy that the mediocre talent that is Lewis, is leading the WDC with two races to go over the even more mediocre Rosberg. If only Ferrari hadn't fired so many good people including Costa, they might be where Mercedes is today. It is a sad, sad year to be a Ferrari fan. Coming to the grid as a manufacturer specializing in building dominant engines and showing up with a pretty awful engine and a second rate chassis. Red Bull on the other hand has made do with clearly the worst engine, but at least they were able to put a properly designed chassis around it. Problems at the scuderia run deep indeed. Doesn't matter, FIAT is there to sort it all out.

2015 can't get here soon enough!

[sagi58]

...That would be a brilliant conclusion had we not seen Lewis win races riding a dog, apparently no everyone has that same skill...

2015 can't get here soon enough!

Hamilton (and others) may have won races with a "dog"; but, I don't believe that any of them ever won the WDC.

As for 2015, I agree whole-heartedly!!

[What's Burning?]

Boy, don't I know it... Tell that to Alonso and Kimi, and Vettel next year! At least he's stated he's looking for a new challenge.

[CookinFlat6]

Hamilton (and others) may have won races with a "dog"; but, I don't believe that any of them ever won the WDC.

The only facts we have pertaining to a driver winning a car in a dog or the best car etc is as follows;

Lewis is the ONLY driver on the grid and the ONLY driver for nearly 2 decades to win the WDC in a car that was not the best car that year

2008 The Ferrari was the best car by a mile and Ferrari were the best team - FACT
2008 Lewis won the WDC in a McLaren - FACT
NOONE else has managed this, not Alonso, not Kimi, not Seb

case closed

[sagi58]

Hamilton (and others) may have won races with a "dog"; but, I don't believe that any of them ever won the WDC.

The only facts we have pertaining to a driver winning a car in a dog or the best car etc is as follows;

Lewis is the ONLY driver on the grid and the ONLY driver for nearly 2 decades to win the WDC in a car that was not the best car that year...

Let me paraphrase... I don't believe that any driver has ever won a title in a dog of a car.

p.s. we're off-topic!

[CookinFlat6]

Yes i think we are all agreed that no one has ever won the WDC in a dog of a car relative to other cars, the next development in the line of debate or discussion for anyone remotely interested in the truth or the reality surrounding this, would be to move from 'dogs never win' to does the best car always win, and then onto 1 in 20 years the best car didnt win, and then at this stage it is optional to proceed to the 'Lewis is God' stage

[What's Burning?]

Groan... aren't there enough Lewis Hamilton threads?

Anyway back on topic Cookin' I'm thinking that based on the poll results you're out in left field on this one. I think given Rosberg's talk that a double points win is just as good as a 11 to 4 wins record with the guy having 4 wins being the WDC... well... he's likely not to agree to anything should a DNF befall his teammate and he's presented with an opportunity to win a title.

[CookinFlat6]

Yes it does rather seem like the general consensus see Merc not exercising any type of team order.

Interesting poll though, and thanks to everyone for the votes and explanations. Thats the real strength of the internet social space - I would never have predicted that general public opinion, I really hope we dont get a chance to test it, but statistically speaking it would be up there with an alien abduction.

Contrary to popular belief the Mercs have actually been only less reliable than Ricciardos Red Bull and Buttons McLaren and the Williams I beleive, and so far both Mercs have only had 2 mid race mechanical retirements

Lets hope for Paddys sake there are no more issues, otherwise we might get calls to replace him with Sam Michael

[Roth]

Way to go picking on spelling in posts now to help your own credibility, you remind me of another 'popular' character on here.

Spelling had nothing to do with it. It's your comprehension that's sh!t.

That means you don't even understand the meaning of 'comprehension'. <EDITED WB: not really necessary is it?> and learn it.

Comprehension is the ability to read text, process it and understand it's meaning (wiki).

You failed at the first hurdle.

You can carry on your little Mr Machismo show all day, but you got it wrong.

[Ferrari man 009]

Contrary to popular belief the Mercs have actually been only less reliable than Ricciardos Red Bull and Buttons McLaren and the Williams I beleive, and so far both Mercs have only had 2 mid race mechanical retirements

Ferrari have the best reliability record, with just 2 mechanical DNF's (both Alonso - Italy and Japan) and 3 DNF's in total.

McLaren also have 3 DNF's, but all were unreliability related.

Williams have 4 DNF's, with 2 being unreliability and 2 being Massa crashing on the opening lap.

Red Bull have 4 DNF's - All were unreliability related

Force India have 5 DNF's and 1 DNS - with the DNS and one DNF being unreliability related.

Then come Mercedes, with 5 DNF's of which 4 were unreliability related.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Formu ... rands_Prix

As an interesting point, the only driver in the top 5 teams that has not had one reliability problem all season is Raikkonen - and yet of all 10 drivers he has the lowest points total

[Jabberwocky]

Maybe Nico is trying to do a Keke and win a championship with the least amount of wins

[CookinFlat6]

Contrary to popular belief the Mercs have actually been only less reliable than Ricciardos Red Bull and Buttons McLaren and the Williams I beleive, and so far both Mercs have only had 2 mid race mechanical retirements

Ferrari have the best reliability record, with just 2 mechanical DNF's (both Alonso - Italy and Japan) and 3 DNF's in total.

McLaren also have 3 DNF's, but all were unreliability related.

Williams have 4 DNF's, with 2 being unreliability and 2 being Massa crashing on the opening lap.

Red Bull have 4 DNF's - All were unreliability related

Force India have 5 DNF's and 1 DNS - with the DNS and one DNF being unreliability related.

Then come Mercedes, with 5 DNF's of which 4 were unreliability related.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Formu ... rands_Prix

As an interesting point, the only driver in the top 5 teams that has not had one reliability problem all season is Raikkonen - and yet of all 10 drivers he has the lowest points total

I am going by laps completed by driver, i.e how much mileage per car even before the dnf. If a car dnfs on lap 1 or on lap 56, with my metric we identify the more reliable, with yours just the most incidents causing a dnf. Kimi doesnt really count here because he has had no effect on anything, but amongst the players - Ricc, Merc Williams, McLaren then Ricc has completed most laps followed by Button, then Bottas, then Alonso, then Merc

Put it this way Merc have finished in the points 85% of races whereas Ferrari 76% so their reliability is possibly nothing to write home about

[sagi58]

Yes i think we are all agreed that no one has ever won the WDC in a dog of a car relative to other cars...

Actually, that's the first time you've actually said that.

[Ferrari man 009]

Put it this way Merc have finished in the points 85% of races whereas Ferrari 76% so their reliability is possibly nothing to write home about

You can't really use this stat to prove reliability when Raikkonen has failed to finish in the points on 5 occasions he has finished races this season, which is more down to him being slow than Ferrari being unreliable.

As you can see from the "retirements" table in the link below. Mercedes have had 5 "technical failures" (3 for Hamilton, 2 for Rosberg) in races this season while Ferrari have had 2 (both Alonso). In fact the best teams are McLaren, Force India and Williams who have all only had 1 technical failure each this season. Interestingly, this shows that Mercedes have had more technical retirements than all their customers combined.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/statistics/2 ... penalties/