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[CookinFlat6]

For me saying that the Bugatti Veyron is French is like saying the new Mini is British. When a car company has a complete departure and change in production and manufacturing values after a a takeover, it stretches belief to attribute its new success to its previous owners.

Therefore apart from its origins, the success and hence the architects of the 'new' car must be the new ownership. So Lamborghini Miura is Italian and the Aventura is German, Mini is German, the Veyron is German, What is a car company if not its production values? Its name? its long lost history?

[CookinFlat6]

Bugatti is French if McLaren is British.

surely you mean Bugatti is French if McLaren is Kiwi?

[What's Burning?]

We're getting seriously side tracked in this discussion! The fuel rate change is not going to fix Ferrari's problems, not now and not long term. If I had the choice, I'd have kept the 2013 spec tires the way they were at the beginning of the year and forced the teams to use the tires as they were intended and withing the required pressure ranges. Red Bull benefited most from the change, Mercedes did also benefit but what did they benefit? A second place finish and three victories to Red Bull's 16? Might as well have let Ferrari and Lotus and Force India challenge the Red Bull Dominance. The point though was that the tires were poorly designed, were on the limit and the lack of testing to give Pirelli data crated the perfect storm that was Silverstone.

To draw similarities between the two however is not the same. This is not a third party issue. This is not an issue with fuel sensors, this is an issue with one and a half of the engine providers not being able to produce a competitive engine given the 2014 regulations and the time allowed even after pushing it back a year.

The reality is that perhaps if everything else was working with the F14T they'd be able to compete like the Red Bull is. If not for first and second, at least for the last step on the podium. We all all race fans, and to a fault would all rather see Renault and Ferrari step up their power units, than to have the regulations changed.

[CookinFlat6]

Hear, hear!

The good thing to come out of all this is that I cannot remeber the last time there was so much unity in F1 across the board to stand up and oppose the suggestions of arbitrary rule changes to allow a faltering competitor to improve.

There has been unity on this front from knowledgeable Ferrari fans, standing side to side with Todt, Ron, Lowe, Lauda, fans of every other team and the media almost to a man.

When last did so many unite against so few in F1? Could be the start of a new equitable and more sporting competition, led by the fact that almost everyone would prefer to see a race like we saw on Sunday again, and will resist changing things

[Hammer278]

Well when you have a Monster dominating and supplying 1/3rd of the grid with (the best) technology, you have no choice but to give respect. Merc were just a name in F1 with Mclaren as an engine supplier before, now they're fast becoming the Voice of the grid.

[CookinFlat6]

Makes sense, they did invent the motorcars as we know it

They are bound to supply a calming voice of reason and leadership that F1 has been missing for decades

[spankyham]

We're getting seriously side tracked in this discussion! The fuel rate change is not going to fix Ferrari's problems, not now and not long term. If I had the choice, I'd have kept the 2013 spec tires the way they were at the beginning of the year and forced the teams to use the tires as they were intended and withing the required pressure ranges. Red Bull benefited most from the change, Mercedes did also benefit but what did they benefit? A second place finish and three victories to Red Bull's 16? Might as well have let Ferrari and Lotus and Force India challenge the Red Bull Dominance. The point though was that the tires were poorly designed, were on the limit and the lack of testing to give Pirelli data crated the perfect storm that was Silverstone.

To draw similarities between the two however is not the same. This is not a third party issue. This is not an issue with fuel sensors, this is an issue with one and a half of the engine providers not being able to produce a competitive engine given the 2014 regulations and the time allowed even after pushing it back a year.

The reality is that perhaps if everything else was working with the F14T they'd be able to compete like the Red Bull is. If not for first and second, at least for the last step on the podium. We all all race fans, and to a fault would all rather see Renault and Ferrari step up their power units, than to have the regulations changed.

We most definitely are getting sidetracked here. All the stuff about Ferrari not being up to scratch are right, but, given they are being thrashed in half a dozen other threads, perhaps we can just let it drop here

..... getting back to rules changes ..... I couldn't agree with you more on the fact that they should not have changed tires last year. The problem is that they did. And that set a precedent that can be followed. Even worse, they changed last years tires with Ferrari, Lotus and FI in vocal opposition. So not only was a precedent set to change rules mid season, the precedent was set that the rules could be changed without unanimous agreement.

My main though on the flow sensor is that I want whatever resolution comes from this to leave Dan with his podium and points from Australia in tact.

[Hammer278]

We most definitely are getting sidetracked here. All the stuff about Ferrari not being up to scratch are right, but, given they are being thrashed in half a dozen other threads, perhaps we can just let it drop here

..... getting back to rules changes ..... I couldn't agree with you more on the fact that they should not have changed tires last year. The problem is that they did. And that set a precedent that can be followed. Even worse, they changed last years tires Ferrari, Lotus and FI opposition. So not only was a precedent set to change rules mid season, the precedent was set that the rules could be changed without unanimous agreement.

My main though on the flow sensor is that I want whatever resolution comes from this to leave Dan with his podium and points from Australia in tact.

They changed tyres mid season on s-a-f-e-t-y g-r-o-u-n-d-s. They did this after Silverstone where tyres were blowing up left and right. Some teams which had an advantage were opposed (never mind if anyone gets killed, we worked hard) but the majority didn't want to see drivers risking their lives so a few teams could continue benefiting from 'hard work'.

These engines which Merc have built are in no way unsafe. Lapping 2-3 seconds quicker than the opposition doesn't contribute in a detrimental manner to Nico and Lewis' health.

[CookinFlat6]

I wonder who is right on this one, most of the media, the fans and the paddock and the FIA, or Montezemolo and a few Ferrari fans in a Ferrari poll

Its all academic, Todt has rejected the call for a mid season rule change full stop

[AKR]

Bugatti is French if McLaren is British.

Totally agrees.


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[AKR]

For me saying that the Bugatti Veyron is French is like saying the new Mini is British. When a car company has a complete departure and change in production and manufacturing values after a a takeover, it stretches belief to attribute its new success to its previous owners.

Therefore apart from its origins, the success and hence the architects of the 'new' car must be the new ownership. So Lamborghini Miura is Italian and the Aventura is German, Mini is German, the Veyron is German, What is a car company if not its production values? Its name? its long lost history?

Totally disagree. A company is what it is registered as. Bugatti is registered as French and Lamborghini is registered as Italian. Some German DNA is irrelevant.

It's like a person. If they are born in a country but hold the citizenship of another, then they're whatever their papers say they are.

Also your argument is flawed further. Fiat owns Chrysler. However Chrysler is American and always will be.

The ford Sierra is British 100% and the division of ford who made this car was also a British registered company. Ford of UK. But the owners or parent company is American.


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[AKR]

Bugatti is French if McLaren is British.

surely you mean Bugatti is French if McLaren is Kiwi?

No.

Bugatti's founder is Italian. McLaren's is kiwi. Ettore founded his company in France thus Bugatti is French. Bruce founded his in Britain thus McLaren is British.


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[CookinFlat6]

For me saying that the Bugatti Veyron is French is like saying the new Mini is British. When a car company has a complete departure and change in production and manufacturing values after a a takeover, it stretches belief to attribute its new success to its previous owners.

Therefore apart from its origins, the success and hence the architects of the 'new' car must be the new ownership. So Lamborghini Miura is Italian and the Aventura is German, Mini is German, the Veyron is German, What is a car company if not its production values? Its name? its long lost history?

Totally disagree. A company is what it is registered as. Bugatti is registered as French and Lamborghini is registered as Italian. Some German DNA is irrelevant.

It's like a person. If they are born in a country but hold the citizenship of another, then they're whatever their papers say they are.

Also your argument is flawed further. Fiat owns Chrysler. However Chrysler is American and always will be.

The ford Sierra is British 100% and the division of ford who made this car was also a British registered company. Ford of UK. But the owners or parent company is American.


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I agree with your sentiments entirely about ownership of a firm in its entirity not affecting the 'nationality'
However I was specifically talking about the cases when the new owners change the entire production and manufacturing setup. In that case (like BMW and Mini, and VW and Bugatti) then its academic to say the car firm remains the same 'nationality' as it was before the change

Like a kid is born in one country just before its parents who are from a different country take it back home and raise it according to the culture, it would be academic to say the kids nationality is that of its country of birth

[Hammer278]

For me saying that the Bugatti Veyron is French is like saying the new Mini is British. When a car company has a complete departure and change in production and manufacturing values after a a takeover, it stretches belief to attribute its new success to its previous owners.

Therefore apart from its origins, the success and hence the architects of the 'new' car must be the new ownership. So Lamborghini Miura is Italian and the Aventura is German, Mini is German, the Veyron is German, What is a car company if not its production values? Its name? its long lost history?

Totally disagree. A company is what it is registered as. Bugatti is registered as French and Lamborghini is registered as Italian. Some German DNA is irrelevant.

It's like a person. If they are born in a country but hold the citizenship of another, then they're whatever their papers say they are.

Also your argument is flawed further. Fiat owns Chrysler. However Chrysler is American and always will be.

The ford Sierra is British 100% and the division of ford who made this car was also a British registered company. Ford of UK. But the owners or parent company is American.


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You're talking about paperwork. Not important. If I were born in Malaysia and raised in Australia, my passport says I'm Msian but I grew up Australian with Australian traits and their character strengths/weaknesses. This is what matters.

The same with cars. Bugatti can be considered French but like I mentioned, the car was built along with German intel and the car is powered German. You can't simply discard this fact. The same as the McLaren F1 powered by BMW, McLaren is not just British but with German engineering incorporated. Like I said before, where the car is 'built' doesn't matter. Its the old CBU/CKD, BMWs built in Msia are CKD but it still carries the German DNA and build quality.

[CookinFlat6]

And Lambo, they were fully Italian, made in Italy with Italian staff and production. When Audi took over they were now made on a German production line sharing a parts bin with Audi, with German supervision and complete integration with Audi production and manufacturing values.

What makes it Italian, the styling? or the production? or the ownership? or the staff? - a combination of these is probably the answer, and if we cannot say its a German company we sure as hell can no longer say its an Italian one