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[CookinFlat6]

Oh. So they'll surely all say that it's on safety grounds that they have to copy the Merc engine won't they?

Ferrari are already trying to get the fuel flow restriction removed. This is not a change to a particular engines but will mean the RBRs Renault engine becomes instantly as powerful as the other 2.
It's not on safety grounds but on grounds that without an immediate change F1 will die according to a poll of Ferrar fans

[stonemonkey]

Oh. So they'll surely all say that it's on safety grounds that they have to copy the Merc engine won't they?

Ferrari are already trying to get the fuel flow restriction removed. This is not a change to a particular engines but will mean the RBRs Renault engine becomes instantly as powerful as the other 2.
It's not on safety grounds but on grounds that without an immediate change F1 will die according to a poll of Ferrar fans

It would also lift the restrictions imposed on those other two as well.

[CookinFlat6]

The other 2 appear to produce peak power at less than 100 kg/h. The Renault unit is down on the power it produces for that flow rate. If the restrictions were lifted then all 3 would be able to increase power at a cost of using more fuel. Therefore Renault would have a much much bigger relative gain

Read between the lines with Horner

Team principal Christian Horner has called for the fuel sensor system to be removed following a difficult time so far this year.
The Red Bull team have endured a dismal start to the 2014 campaign, struggling in pre-season testing before Australia where Sebastian Vettel had to retire from the race, whilst team-mate Daniel Ricciardo was disqualified after exceeding the fuel flow limit of 100kg per hour.

The defending champions have decided to appeal the decision to throw out Ricciardo and a hearing is set for April 14, but Horner feels the fuel sensor's should be scrapped as they are not reliable enough.

"We need a better way of measuring and monitoring the fuel flow, or say you get rid of it and you have 100kg for the race and that's it," he said.

"Personally, I think it would be easier to get rid of it."

The FIA have responded in quick fashion to the comments from Horner, with Fabrice Lom, head of powertrain insisting that the rules are there for a reason and added there are no plans to scrap any of the changes that were brought into effect for this season.

"If you have no fuel flow limit, the fastest thing is to use a huge boost at the beginning of the straight and then lift off, there will be huge and very dangerous differences of speed [between cars] on the same lap, with a driving style that is not really F1," he said.

I just do not understand why Montezemolo would push for scrapping this restriction when Ferrari and Merc have invested in producing peak power within the flow limit. It couldnt be that Ferrari gain fuel economy which is an area they may be short, it could be to do with drievability or power delivery, again an area they are said to be short, or it could be because they are not recovering enough energy, yet another area they are said to be short

But to hand Renault and RBR a get out of jail card beggars belief. Its a shame that Ferrari fans who normally defend every last thing the team do are silent on this issue. Would be nice to get an opinion from actual fans of this team with any F1 knowledge

[stonemonkey]

The other 2 appear to produce peak power at less than 100 kg/h.
.....

Do you have a source for this?

[CookinFlat6]

I reckon a certain upcoming matter between the FIA and RBR is all the proof thats needed, dont you?

According to the FIA (who are the governing body) RBRs Renault engine consistently breached the 100 kg/h fuel flow limit. This would imply that demands for peak power caused the engine management to go north of 100 to comply

The confirmation of the teams allowed to demand peak power was provided by Renault themselves

Therefore in order to do any running the teams were not able to run at full power meaning they never reach their potential.

However, this weekend in Melbourne they will be able to do just that says Remi Taffin, Renault's head of trackside operations.

[stonemonkey]

I reckon a certain upcoming matter between the FIA and RBR is all the proof thats needed, dont you?

No, I've not seen anything to suggest the Merc or Ferrari engines aren't also capable of more than what we've seen if they were allowed a higher fuel flow rate. I'm not saying one way or the other as I don't know but RBR's issue isn't proof of anything like that.

[CookinFlat6]

The Merc and Ferrari (any) engines ARE capable of more power if they used more fuel. The point is that they produce enough power withing the fuel flow restriction, Renault is said to produce 80hp less WITHIN the restriction.

The more fuel you use in each explosion in the engine, the more power you generate. If you only have 100 units of fuel for the whole race but unlimited per explosion then you could generate 1000 bhp for parts of the race then get back on the fuel curve by geberating only 200 bhp for a while.

This is a different proposition to being limited to a certain amount of fuel per explosion (analogous to flow rate per hour). In that case you are limited to how much power you can generate by the amount of fuel available per explosion, not per the whole race.

This forces the teams to make their engines more efficient, insted of make them more powerful in a conventional manner then force the drivers to go through periods with the engines completely detuned. Otherwise the difference between engine modes could result in differences in speed of say 100 mph

So Renault are not efficient enough to produce enough power for the same amount of fuel and RBR hope to make up for it by clever strategy, engine management, mapping, whatever

This looks at the engine sound, and guess what underlies this 'concern'?

Taffin’s latest comments unsurprisingly take a swipe at the fuel flow regulations in particular, and without change here, the engine sound cannot be improved.

“We went from 18,000 rpm to something like 12,000 this year. It’s important to say it’s based on the regulations, because they set 15,000rpm as a maximum, but the fuel flow limitation means the maximum we’re running, whether it’s a Ferrari, a Mercedes, or a Renault, is 12,000 and at the end of the straight it could be 10 or 11,000.

This makes a very big difference, because last year it was 18,000. Now where you’ve got grandstands it’s something like 10,000”.

Clearly Remi believes he has found the Holy Grail for those offended by the new sound of F1. “If you want to have a different noise you have to go up on revs, but there would be no point going up on revs if you don’t look at the fuel flow, because you would have to get the fuel flow up. But then you bring your efficiency down.” he added.

So the FIA should scrap its flagship policy of a more efficient F1; increase the fuel flow rates and increase the amount of fuel the cars can run? Then hey Presto!!! We have more noise – and co-incidentally, more competitive Renault teams.

Considering, Renault demanded a change from the V8 engines to the more commercially useful V6 Turbo’s, it is shameless that they and their ‘works team’ Red Bull are undermining the new Formula 1, in some vain short termist attempt to regain parity with Mercedes and Ferrari.

I still do not understand why Ferrari are arranging secret 'summit' meetings with bernie to try and get the rules on fuel flow changed and to try 'increase the sound' when they are playing RBRs tune
Oh well I guess if Ferrari were the leading team they wouldnt be doing this

[CookinFlat6]

Why are Ferrari supporting RBR on this, surely the manufacturers should be sticking together. Does Montezemolo not remember what happened the last time he did RBRs bidding, Surely Ferrari should be concentrating on beating RBR

The Bahrain Grand Prix will take place against a background of unrest in the F1 paddock, with some leading figures unhappy about the new rules and regulations. There will be a meeting between the FIA president, Jean Todt, F1's chief executive, Bernie Ecclestone, and the Ferrari chairman, Luca Di Montezemolo, who is worried about the new fuel-efficiency regulations and much else in the sport.

Ferrari say they have received more than 50,000 replies to their online survey, claiming that 83% said they were unhappy with the new rules. There is support from another of this season's underachievers, Red Bull, whose designer Adrian Newey, said here that the new hybrid engine was introduced "without proper thought". But the Mercedes motorsport chief, Toto Wolff, has described as "absurd" the prospect of changes being made this season. The German team won the opening two races in Australia and Malaysia, and have Nico Rosberg on pole for Sunday's grand prix.

Defending his team's position, Wolff said: "We should say: 'Hold on a minute, Mercedes has done a better job, with their engine more efficient.' The rules are the rules, were implemented a long time ago, and if you want to change them then do it for next year, but I don't see that happening."

[bud]

I think if Ferrari were in Mercedes position they wouldn't be saying anything or holding any rash meetings.
Pathetic!

[Hammer278]

If the rules are somehow changed this season, Merc have a right to take up a massive lawsuit against the FIA and f**k them upside down if need be. Ridiculous to even consider changing the goal posts just because some people couldn't measure up.

[spankyham]

Moving discussion on Fuel Flow Rate regulation to specific topic.

[racechick]

It's not fair if Ferrari, or any team, make a big fuss and get rules changed mid season just because they haven't done so well working with them, grossly unfair! Of course Ferrari fans will vote they don't like the regs, because Ferrari aren't doing well. Have Mercedes fans been asked? Or considered in this? There are quite a lot of Mercedes fans and I would suggest they're pretty happy with the regs....since they're the same for everyone and teams have known about them for a long time.
I don't like the sound of the engines but I don't want them changing mid season.

I'll be livid if Ferrari and Red bull get this changed. Where were the summit meetings when fans didn't like go-slow tyres? DRS? Far flung races that nobody goes to?
Ok rant over.

[Hammer278]

No worries, I don't think Mercedes will allow changes to go through. As Toto mentioned it's already been settled long ago and the teams have put pen to paper to the agreement, I'd believe they'd need unanimous agreement to rip apart the agreement and they're not getting it just for a couple of whingers and their fans.

[stonemonkey]

The Merc and Ferrari (any) engines ARE capable of more power if they used more fuel. The point is that they produce enough power withing the fuel flow restriction, Renault is said to produce 80hp less WITHIN the restriction.

The more fuel you use in each explosion in the engine, the more power you generate. If you only have 100 units of fuel for the whole race but unlimited per explosion then you could generate 1000 bhp for parts of the race then get back on the fuel curve by geberating only 200 bhp for a while.

.......

That's not really the point, you were saying it would allow RB/Renault to catch up with the rest but lifting the restrictions would allow the others to advance as well. The point is that for a given amount of fuel Renault seem to be behind behind, even with the restrictions on fuel flow lifted they still have a limited amount of fuel for the total race.

[CookinFlat6]

I am not sure if you actually read my carefull worked out and presented post. Or maybe it wasn't clear enough. Or maybe you are a Ferrari fan who is compelled to argue in their favour regardless of any facts or logic.

I'll try one last time.
The total fuel per race of 100 kg all the teams can achieve - this is like have a fridge full of food for a weekend of 10 meals
The total fuel flow rate of 100 kg per hour is more like a limit on how much food out of the fridge you can eat at any one time.
Without the flow restriction you could eat enough for 9 meals at one sitting then eat 1/10th at the rest
With the restriction you can only eat a max of 3 meals at once forcing you to not be a glutton at any 1 sitting.

Renault are not at their most productive unless they have 4 meals in one sitting. This would mean the other meals are leaner but at least they could pick the pony to develop full power locked in the engine
With the restriction they never have a chance to develop enough because they are still hungry after 3 meals at once

If the restrictions are lifted everyone can eat excessively at 1 meal but - here's the hard to understand part - the other 2 don't need to so their gain is much less than Renault who can now develop full power at least once allowing them to do more

It's incredible how supporters with do much passion don't take the time or realise that it's even better when the passion doesn't get in the way of facts and technical details which is a big part of F1, not just a blind support