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[CookinFlat6]

McLaren have a super car company that are not making "Super cars" but "performance" cars but selling them for super car prices so no ones buying them.

McLaren have made £216,000,000 on McLaren P1's and still have one third of them to sell. They have also sold more then 1000 of the £250,000 McLaren Mp4-12c's. So they are making money!

The P1s are not really a profitable line, more a statement like the Veron. The most profitable space is the 160 - 200k moderate volume cars like the 458.

McLaren s 12c has been a near disaster in business terms, the coupe had teething problems with cars sent back, then the 458 gave it a real pounding, so far they sold about a quarter of their target. Then the Spyder was released at the wrong time, they are selling well but now no one wants the coupes and dealers are stockpiling them and can't shift them

The overhang on the coupes is a serious blow to a boutique car maker. There are plans for a 90k bigger volume 911 challenger, and they are pushing for that as a way out

All this info is out there if you avoid the pr released to the media

[CookinFlat6]

In view of the Mercedes result, and the stoicism Ross Brawn demonstrated through the whole saga, I am wondering whether a big issue for Mclaren isnt there reluctance to push any boundaries since Spygate.

Whitmarsh seems to have almost done the opposite since, maybe in an attempt to erase spygate from the blotter with sponsors.

For example, even though McLaren had the best Kers and therefore had an advantage from 2010, he still agreed to ban it when he should maybe have been insisting that it was unfair after the money spent.

Also we have seen the flakyness when it came to shipping parts over at last minute but not using them because the FIA testers were out to lunch or something silly like that.

I wonder how different th team would be now, had Ross been in charge all this time with exactly the same resources at his disposal.

Actually it doesnt bear thinking about, way too depressing

[NHcheese]

McLaren have sold out on McLaren 12c's, I dont know about the convertibles however that is still more than 10 million pounds.

[CookinFlat6]

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/201 ... is-mclaren

Interesting interview with Ron, obviously technology biased, but I wonder if Mclarens over reliance on data is a solution chasing a problem to the detriment of the F1 team

Ron talks about being able to predict the future based on real time awareness of the state of things coupled with historical data and pattern recognition.

This sounds all hunky dory and impressive but flawed. As the financial industry will confirm having spent billions on the same premise, there is a small problem when it comes to relying on a modelled outcome - the human element

I.e. if humans were all rational and had no biases or emotions or flaws then the computer projection would be great. However when humans are involved, no one not even the human in question knows how he will feel like acting in the near future despite his history when things kick off. So when humans are involved the future will never ever be 100% predictable by modelling

And if Ron believes this and the team make decisions based on modelling alone there is no hope

[Jabberwocky]

Ron is a very measured man. Maybe he can not see that some people will be more emotionally driven

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[Hammer278]

Ron is a very measured man. Maybe he can not see that some people will be more emotionally driven

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Did you see that dude cry his eyes out when Kimi crossed the line in 1st place in Malaysia 2003.

[Jabberwocky]

That is because he knew how many ice creams that would cost him.

Ask lenard Nimoy what happens when you live a life showing no emotions. When they pop out they pop out

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[LewEngBridewell]

That is because he knew how many ice creams that would cost him.

[CookinFlat6]

That is because he knew how many ice creams that would cost him.

Ask lenard Nimoy what happens when you live a life showing no emotions. When they pop out they pop out

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You might have hit the nail on the head there

If Rons truly believes this stuff

The result, says Dennis, is that the company makes "virtually nothing that doesn't work". Gone are the days of trial and error -- Hana is used to run simulations for all the components that would typically be tried and tested in an arduous process of finding out what works (things like fluid dynamics, wind tunnel and telemetry).

Then like a person sprending his life suppressing all emotion, when it does emerge, because he has had no practice at managing it, all hell breaks loose.

So when the car turns out to be nothing like their projections, they have no plan B. That would explain why a firm with such previous technological prowess and success suddenly flounders. Maybe they basically have no pencil and paper or clay left in the MTC! (metaphorically speaking)

[darwin dali]

Maybe they basically have no pencil and paper or clay left in the MTC! (metaphorically speaking)

Unlike AN

[vaptin]

That is because he knew how many ice creams that would cost him.

Ask lenard Nimoy what happens when you live a life showing no emotions. When they pop out they pop out

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You might have hit the nail on the head there

If Rons truly believes this stuff

The result, says Dennis, is that the company makes "virtually nothing that doesn't work". Gone are the days of trial and error -- Hana is used to run simulations for all the components that would typically be tried and tested in an arduous process of finding out what works (things like fluid dynamics, wind tunnel and telemetry).

Then like a person sprending his life suppressing all emotion, when it does emerge, because he has had no practice at managing it, all hell breaks loose.

So when the car turns out to be nothing like their projections, they have no plan B. That would explain why a firm with such previous technological prowess and success suddenly flounders. Maybe they basically have no pencil and paper or clay left in the MTC! (metaphorically speaking)

I think the mean they use a systematic approach to seeing if something works, before hand, rather than just building, then changing small components of that to see what difference it makes, which is very inefficient.

Also, what he says to the media, and what they work on inside, are probably very different things.

It's also an assumption to say they have no Plan B.

[Jabberwocky]

This could be a problem for Mclaren

http://dubai.dubizzle.com/m/motors/used ... MmMv&pos=1

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[Jabberwocky]

An unwanted gift

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[CookinFlat6]

I think the mean they use a systematic approach to seeing if something works, before hand, rather than just building, then changing small components of that to see what difference it makes, which is very inefficient.

Also, what he says to the media, and what they work on inside, are probably very different things.

It's also an assumption to say they have no Plan B.

If a chap really believes that technology means that the company makes "virtually nothing that doesn't work" then I would say that is pretty naive and 90's thinking

Remember how quickly Nick Werth and Virgin retraced from their naive position of CFD only

Just saying, in the industries that are at the forefront of technology, a belief in modelling as virtually 100% accurate because you have more data points than the next guy is stuck in the past.

Can we predict the weather? Not really because we are only starting to realise that the number of data points or variables we need to account for are as many as there are sentient beings. Like the cliche says, a butterfly flapping in Tokyo can affect the weather in New York a week later.

When you have sentient beings involved, like humans, a new reality presents itself in the form of a black swan (in financial lingo). Basically your computers can use historical data and come up with 90% of the possibilities, however the 10% will turn up and kill you stone dead, why?

Because the only thing that can handle the freak occurrence is the ability to read the prevailing conditions and react accordingly.

In the 90s it was thought that neural nets and black boxes would replace humans, but the reality is that the best way is for a human able to over ride and add optionality (common sense) to the technology 'box' - 'this is good on paper, but my 100 million processors acting in parallel between my ears tell me that it just dont feel right and wont work in the real world where humans are involved'

Because we understand other humans and their fallibilities and biases and flaws and emotions

(and dont bring up Chess playing algos either, because to win at chess you need to chase one or two outcomes only, win or draw, in F1 there are many different objectives for the players, like pride, revenge etc etc etc)

[CookinFlat6]

Maybe they basically have no pencil and paper or clay left in the MTC! (metaphorically speaking)

Unlike AN

mate, I thought you meant 'unlike Newey' ironically meaning that Newey uses technology also

however I am now convinced that you are referring to a fairly recent interview with AN, where it was claimed that he still has an old school drawing board somewhere

am i correct?