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[darwin dali]

McLaren had scored the most WCC point's on the track up until their exclusion after that any point's accrude are only for your peace of mind.

and no team except Ferrari would accept the title that way

Your kidding yourself my friend if you actually believe that.

I think, Gregg, you're the one in denial. Everybody knows Ferrari have unfair advantages over the other teams and that they have no shame in taking victories whatever way they come.

No, I would have to say it's hopelessly optimistic to assume Ferrari is the only team who would accept that victory. Maybe the FIA does have Ferrari leanings, but Ferrari is not the only team who would accept that kind of victory. Ron Dennis's McLaren would too for a start and you know it.

Oh yes! The McLaren team even wanted to win the title based on a temperature technicality - remember that one?

[Jensonb]

McLaren had scored the most WCC point's on the track up until their exclusion after that any point's accrude are only for your peace of mind.

and no team except Ferrari would accept the title that way

Your kidding yourself my friend if you actually believe that.

I think, Gregg, you're the one in denial. Everybody knows Ferrari have unfair advantages over the other teams and that they have no shame in taking victories whatever way they come.

No, I would have to say it's hopelessly optimistic to assume Ferrari is the only team who would accept that victory. Maybe the FIA does have Ferrari leanings, but Ferrari is not the only team who would accept that kind of victory. Ron Dennis's McLaren would too for a start and you know it.

Oh yes! The McLaren team even wanted to win the title based on a temperature technicality - remember that one?

That's different, that would only have decided the driver's title - McLaren had already been thrown out of the Constructors'. Besides, the party allegedly at fault wasn't involved in the fight.

I'm not here to debate this, I'm simply pointing out that the world is not as simple as Ferrari being the only people who look out for their own interests and everyone else being saints. McLaren have lodged their share of complaints too, so have other teams. Everyone looks out for themselves, they're not saints.

[Clarkey3262]

FIA Sporting Regulations

According to Article 23 1 b of the FIA sporting regualtions 2008 "The FIA will designate an area in the pit lane where each team may work and one places where pit stops may be carried out."

It mentions nothing regarding placement depending upon the previous years WCC.

Under the FIA rules this is a legal move for them to take however objectionable(sp)

So it is basically a gentleman's agreement then.

Yes it would seem that way

[darwin dali]

McLaren had scored the most WCC point's on the track up until their exclusion after that any point's accrude are only for your peace of mind.

and no team except Ferrari would accept the title that way

Your kidding yourself my friend if you actually believe that.

I think, Gregg, you're the one in denial. Everybody knows Ferrari have unfair advantages over the other teams and that they have no shame in taking victories whatever way they come.

No, I would have to say it's hopelessly optimistic to assume Ferrari is the only team who would accept that victory. Maybe the FIA does have Ferrari leanings, but Ferrari is not the only team who would accept that kind of victory. Ron Dennis's McLaren would too for a start and you know it.

Oh yes! The McLaren team even wanted to win the title based on a temperature technicality - remember that one?

That's different, that would only have decided the driver's title - McLaren had already been thrown out of the Constructors'. Besides, the party allegedly at fault wasn't involved in the fight.

I'm not here to debate this, I'm simply pointing out that the world is not as simple as Ferrari being the only people who look out for their own interests and everyone else being saints. McLaren have lodged their share of complaints too, so have other teams. Everyone looks out for themselves, they're not saints.

Why is that different? I just said this to illustrate the same point you are making, that McLaren would do the same thing, basically stepping over bodies to get what they want. Your point that the party allegedly at fault wasn't even involved in the title fight makes it even more ruthless and machiavellian!

[McLaren Fan]

Yeah, but that would have held up.

You're probably right given the FIA, but I think it is important to note that there was no 'legal' (Mosley's choice word, when it suits him) basis for the penalty in the first instance.

Oh yes! The McLaren team even wanted to win the title based on a temperature technicality - remember that one?

The temperature technicality was completely different for a number of reasons. The teams were in clear breach of the rules and should have got some form of penalty, either in the form of points but, more reasonably, a fine. McLaren had nothing to lose and said that they owed it to Hamilton to appeal rather than themselves. Further, Ferrari use appeals and complain all the time, so McLaren may as well have done the same. I'm sure there are several more reasons I could think of, but it's not the issue about which I wish to speak.

I'm not here to debate this, I'm simply pointing out that the world is not as simple as Ferrari being the only people who look out for their own interests and everyone else being saints. McLaren have lodged their share of complaints too, so have other teams. Everyone looks out for themselves, they're not saints.

Yes, it is true that everybody can appeal a decision in Formula One but, again, I point out that who will be hearing your appeal? The FIA which has an inbuilt Ferrari bias on its WMSC, a stewarding system which is inconsistent and biased, a President with an anti-McLaren agenda (all of these three bodies bodies having no accountability) and Ecclestone who will make a decision based on how much money he will make or lose. As a result, Ferrari get a result which is beneficial to them and the other teams don't. It's the same outside of the appeals process whereby the FIA suddenly declare something or other banned (Michelin tyres, mass dampers) for no good reason other than for the benefit and at the behest of the Maranello mob.

[darwin dali]

[Further, Ferrari use appeals and complain all the time, so McLaren may as well have done the same.

Just what I'm saying (in response to bud's claim to the contrary).

[AKR]

Bud wrote : I didnt say they won the con title i said they scored the most points and earned those points on track, Ferrari won the title in the court room.
and no team except Ferrari would accept the title that way, afterall they pushed the FIA to do exactly what they did against McLaren key note being they didnt push the FIA when Toyota had intellectual property of theirs. im sure they would have if Toyota were challenging them in the title race...

Are you sure about that one Bud? I do remember Hamilton saying that he DID NOT want to win or take the drivers championship off Raikkonen in a court room, but he did state that if they did give it to him (that is take it off Raikkonen) that HE WOULD CERTAINLY ACCEPT IT. Interesting that was and very shift and devious. Just all pretending I think McLaren no different to Ferrari when it comes to winning at all cost. Afterall winning = success = business = war. In this case McLaren lost on track and in the court room but that can easily of been the other way around. Thank God it didn't and it all went Ferrari's way instead.

Either way I never saw McLaren has having a chance to win that appeal. I was in Italy at the time and no one even mentioned it on the news or TV or anything. In fact "La Gazzetta dello Sport" was already selling posters of the new Ferrari champion Raikkonen which I happly purchased long before the appeal had seen its demise. Anyway had to go out of my own way to find out the final verdict (as of course I wasn't going to rest knowing for sure the appeal had failed).

[bud]

Even if McLaren hadn't been excluded from the WCC, Ferrari still beat them by a point. And no, I don't think we can really see it as Bernie kissing McLaren's arse. It's Bernie filling his pockets a bit more...

Youre forgetting the hungary penalty!

Yeah, but that would have held up.

I doubt it, the team was punished over one of their drivers disobeying orders. it was fair to take grid possie off of Alonso for his part but taking points away from the team for that occurance was obsurd!
But it all goes back to what i originally said on the track take away politics McLaren had the most points last season. Simple.

[texasmr2]

But it all goes back to what i originally said on the track take away politics McLaren had the most points last season. Simple.

Not trying to start anything with you mate and I agree that without the politic's and the penalty imposed McLaren did score the most WCC point's. What your asking though is for everyone to disregard the political agenda while you constantly use it as a point of reference a scapegoat and as an excuse.
Is there any chance you can understand what WE, those who support another team, are trying to make clear?

[McLaren Fan]

Not trying to start anything with you mate and I agree that without the politic's and the penalty imposed McLaren did score the most WCC point's. What your asking though is for everyone to disregard the political agenda while you constantly use it as a point of reference a scapegoat and as an excuse.
Is there any chance you can understand what WE, those who support another team, are trying to make clear?

Well, he is saying that because of the politics McLaren lost out, so that is a pretty good excuse.

[texasmr2]

Not trying to start anything with you mate and I agree that without the politic's and the penalty imposed McLaren did score the most WCC point's. What your asking though is for everyone to disregard the political agenda while you constantly use it as a point of reference a scapegoat and as an excuse.
Is there any chance you can understand what WE, those who support another team, are trying to make clear?

Well, he is saying that because of the politics McLaren lost out, so that is a pretty good excuse.

I know what he is saying mate but the political agenda is being used as a scapegoat ie EXCUSE constantly for anything that's detrimental to McLaren for thier action's in '07. Let me say now that if the role's were reversed I would not be looking for every opportunity to make excuse's for Ferrari as a fan. I would say "oh well they got stupid and were caught"! The point is are you man enough to standup to the consequence's or do you want to constantly make excuse's?

Everytime a forum member make's an opinionated and dare I say knowledgeable contradictory reply that does not suit the McLaren cam's opinion the whole "politically wronged by the FIA' attitude appear's.

[Denthúl]

I think the point that people often try to make is the fact that the punishment was given as though it was McLaren's actions, rather than it being several McLaren employees' actions. There's a huge difference. Yes, there are many who will just go out of their way to say that McLaren shouldn't have been punished at all, which is completely stupid - they should've been punished, but I think the particular punishments they got (yes, punishments - multiple penalisation for only one offence) were a bit harsh considering the circumstances.

On a slightly different note, did the FIA actually find any evidence that the MP4-22 or MP4-23 had any Ferrari IP in their design?

[texasmr2]

No the point that is trying to be made is stop all the crying and whining about "Oh the FIA are biased toward's Ferrari" even thought the McLaren TEAM was found to be in breach of the rule's.

Is it the FIA's fault that RD found out to late, as far as we know , to remedy the situation, NO! Is it Ferrari's fault for not having tighter reign's on there TRUSTED employee's YES! So who is to blame, Nigel Stepney, for being a disgruntled employee or Mike Coughlan for ACCEPTING the information? To me it's cut and dry and kinda like someone asking you "Hey man take a hit off this, it will rock your world" or just saying NOOOOO !!!

I view the world and life in simple term's, right and wrong!

[Denthúl]

But you can't blame someone for not knowing. The people who should have faced the major punishments were Coughlan and Stepney, with McLaren and Ferrari perhaps facing minor punishments for failing to control their employees...

Edit: In fact, I fail to see how either team could be punished seeing as the data wasn't incorporated in a car, and they were the actions of Coughlan and Stepney, not McLaren and Ferrari. Renault, however, did use the data, yet no punishment was given whatsoever.

[McLaren Fan]

Not trying to start anything with you mate and I agree that without the politic's and the penalty imposed McLaren did score the most WCC point's. What your asking though is for everyone to disregard the political agenda while you constantly use it as a point of reference a scapegoat and as an excuse.
Is there any chance you can understand what WE, those who support another team, are trying to make clear?

Well, he is saying that because of the politics McLaren lost out, so that is a pretty good excuse.

I know what he is saying mate but the political agenda is being used as a scapegoat ie EXCUSE constantly for anything that's detrimental to McLaren for thier action's in '07. Let me say now that if the role's were reversed I would not be looking for every opportunity to make excuse's for Ferrari as a fan. I would say "oh well they got stupid and were caught"! The point is are you man enough to standup to the consequence's or do you want to constantly make excuse's?

Everytime a forum member make's an opinionated and dare I say knowledgeable contradictory reply that does not suit the McLaren cam's opinion the whole "politically wronged by the FIA' attitude appear's.

And why is that? Because McLaren were taken for a ride in 2007 (and have been son before [as have other teams]). It's quite a big issue and a perfectly legitimate excuse. For what it's worth, I haven't seen any knowledgeable posts on here that contradict the pro-McLaren point of view, just a pack of lies yoked with supposition, inadequate facts and bias. I wouldn't expect the masses following the Maranello mob to ever understand.