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[scotty]

Nurburgring '05 was a bit of a freak accident though... as for the rest of the season the car itself was somewhat unreliable yeah, but i seem to remember a couple of Mercedes issues that caused him to lose grid places, ie at France (where he did will to recover to 2nd in the race). I'm sure that wasn't the only time a Merc engine caused problems that year but i might be wrong.

1999... i seem to remember Mika dropping the car at Imola and Monza? '08 the car was solid but the driving was wildly inconsistent (it was Ferrari who had engines blowing up, i seem to remember).

[bud]

IMO there is a reason whilst the team has not won a Constructors Championship since 1998!

Technically they won in 07 scored more points than Ferrari.

But seems mate you're confusing McLaren mech failures over the years with Mercedes. But given your logic I don't know why I'm bothering because you have none.

[GRHinPorts]

IMO there is a reason whilst the team has not won a Constructors Championship since 1998!

Technically they won in 07 scored more points than Ferrari.

But seems mate you're confusing McLaren mech failures over the years with Mercedes. But given your logic I don't know why I'm bothering because you have none.

In your opinion if you dont mind. But if you dont want to bother thats your choice.

But if you are surely you are not going to tell me that all of McLaren's car failures are down to just Mercedes engines. An engine McLaren have been more than happy to use since 1995.

[bud]

Overwhelming majority were engine failures yes! Especially in the Mika/Kimi years that is a fact! And it's a bit hard to change engine supplier when that engine supplier owns 40% share holdings. So don't play the happy to use the engine crap!

End of the day to say you're a fan of a team then dismiss them because of mechanical issues is pathetic. That is part and parcel of motorsport! A true fan would never do that. You sound like a bandwagoner to me! Unlike you I've followed this team through thick and thin a true fan, I don't bail out when it gets bad like a loser!

[LewEngBridewell]

Overwhelming majority were engine failures yes! Especially in the Mika/Kimi years that is a fact! And it's a bit hard to change engine supplier when that engine supplier owns 40% share holdings. So don't play the happy to use the engine crap!

End of the day to say you're a fan of a team then dismiss them because of mechanical issues is pathetic. That is part and parcel of motorsport! A true fan would never do that. You sound like a bandwagoner to me! Unlike you I've followed this team through thick and thin a true fan, I don't bail out when it gets bad like a loser!

[GRHinPorts]

Overwhelming majority were engine failures yes! Especially in the Mika/Kimi years that is a fact! And it's a bit hard to change engine supplier when that engine supplier owns 40% share holdings. So don't play the happy to use the engine crap!

End of the day to say you're a fan of a team then dismiss them because of mechanical issues is pathetic. That is part and parcel of motorsport! A true fan would never do that. You sound like a bandwagoner to me! Unlike you I've followed this team through thick and thin a true fan, I don't bail out when it gets bad like a loser!

Hmmm...the personal insults neither add nor subtract from your point so save yourself the trouble.

Look your a McLaren fan (as are plenty on this site) so if you want to defend your team thats you choice. In fact I pretty much expected that when I made my first comment as I sure there are maybe 7 or 8 more posters ready to line up with a row of Hey ho that, doesnt really change how I see it.

With regards to the point you make about engines being the main cause of problems (and I am not sure this was the case with Mika in 1999 and 2000) to me its pretty hard to divorce McLaren and Mercedes as an F1 concern precisely for the 40% share holding point you make. But the only people responsible for that situation are McLaren themselves...so if their engine is the problem then the buck has to rest with the team.

Also the team must surely take some of the responsibility for getting the engine to work.

Finally if you have a regulation specifically designed to penalise engine failures as was introduced in 2005 I would have expected the team to have addressed engine reliability with its supplier in the run up to that season. Especially a team so interwoven with said engine supplier. To have an engine failure compromise your chances once is maybe unfortunate. Four times and its getting ridiculous and the team has to put its hand up and say its made mistakes.

[Jabberwocky]

You also have to think that a chassis can also cause sengine failures. what if the car does not have enough cooling, or has issues with oil, etc

[andrew]

The driver can cause an engine fauilure too.

[Hammer278]

The driver can cause an engine fauilure too.

Yeah back in the 80's and 90's.

[andrew]

The driver can cause an engine fauilure too.

Yeah back in the 80's and 90's.

They can still do that today if the do something extremely stupid with the gear changes and put too much strain on the engine and gearbox.

[bud]

Grhinports, are you really that naive when it comes to engine works? You're digging your self into a deeper illogical hole! Mercedes like other suppliers employ their own staff to do the engine related work at each team. E.g. You'll see Renault shirted people in Redbulls garage. RedBull do not employ them, they are part of the engine deal. But back to McLaren...Mercedes make the engine at Brixworth while McLaren's factory is at Woking. If McLaren was responsible for the engine it wouldnt be badged Mercedes would it? And how on earth is McLaren meant to change suppliers when at the time Mercedes owned 40% share in McLaren. Another stupid comment!

[GRHinPorts]

Grhinports, are you really that naive when it comes to engine works? You're digging your self into a deeper illogical hole! Mercedes like other suppliers employ their own staff to do the engine related work at each team. E.g. You'll see Renault shirted people in Redbulls garage. RedBull do not employ them, they are part of the engine deal. But back to McLaren...Mercedes make the engine at Brixworth while McLaren's factory is at Woking. If McLaren was responsible for the engine it wouldnt be badged Mercedes would it? And how on earth is McLaren meant to change suppliers when at the time Mercedes owned 40% share in McLaren. Another stupid comment!

Ok...first of all I didnt make the comments about drivers and chassis creating engine failures.

Second, all I am saying is that McLaren choose to be in partnership with Mercedes. Nobody is holding a gun to their head. Nobody forced McLaren to sell 40% of their shares to Mercedes. If the engine is the problem (and Im not convinced it always has been - see my final point below) then McLaren in partnership with their engine supplier Mercedes are behoven to get in right.

Or put it this way it is my choice (scrap this logic idea you keep pushing as if any one of us has a mortgage claim on that - especially when you have to lace every point you wish to make with an emotionally charged insult) to not support a team that cant get its act together in getting with the right engine supplier and making the deal work on the track. I take the view that in the time I have been following F1 McLaren are a team that make the least of their prospective chances. I am sorry if you and other McLaren fans dont like it, I wouldnt expect anything less given the illogicallities of fanship, and I only made my original point with apologies, but there it is.

Finally it was not engines that were the main cause of Mika's problems in the late 90s. In the years 1998, 1999 & 2000 (the first two should have been strolls and the 3rd should definitely have been won) Mika had 9 retirements of which only 2 were engine failures.

[Hammer278]

The driver can cause an engine fauilure too.

Yeah back in the 80's and 90's.

They can still do that today if the do something extremely stupid with the gear changes and put too much strain on the engine and gearbox.

Okay...so which instance of an engine blow-up comes to mind which was due to an 'extremely stupid' action by the driver?

That's what I thought.

[bud]

How a driver drives does play a roll in the engine life, but thats besides the point.
You can't force Mercedes to sell their share, they were a joint effort commonly referred to as a"team" not just a supplier! its like talking to a brick wall :bang head:

I wouldnt expect anything less given the illogicallities of fanship

given you said you were a fan of McLaren at one point. that includes you. Illogical see i was right about your logic

[andrew]

The driver can cause an engine fauilure too.

Yeah back in the 80's and 90's.

They can still do that today if the do something extremely stupid with the gear changes and put too much strain on the engine and gearbox.

Okay...so which instance of an engine blow-up comes to mind which was due to an 'extremely stupid' action by the driver?

That's what I thought.

I don't need to list instances, just helps to have a bit of engineering knowledge.