FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[FRAFPDD]

I wish people would learn to display arguments how its commonly practiced, ive never seen EU government making nasty comments in their forums(real life forums) about France from the British ambassador cause of something that happened 400 years ago.

Facts are facts but theyre nothing without context, the latter of which is totally left out by fanboyish arguments.

Even when i was arguing about Prost being better then Senna i went above and beyond acknowledging, i put forward the context that Senna didnt finish as many races, but then looking even more in context you find out it was often his fault, whereas Prost made cars finish.

You can look at all that and work out no more context from it and then judge what you like from it, as long as everythings there.

But when the Hamilton fans refuse to accept he was favoured when he beat Alonso

Or Vettel fans that he has never won in a car that wont go down as one of the greatest in history. (Sorry i forgot Monza 2008 there, only once)

Or Alonso fans that despite his consistency hes not as good an on track car to car racer as Hamilton, infact nobody is bar Kobayashi.

Its just stupid, even more stupid that i feel compelled to say this every so often cause itll never stop, just an agenda push for MOST on here lets be honest.

Forumula1.net martyr we are now??

Killing myself for the sake of this forum? Decisions, Decisions..........

[texasmr2]

I wish people would learn to display arguments how its commonly practiced, ive never seen EU government making nasty comments in their forums(real life forums) about France from the British ambassador cause of something that happened 400 years ago.

Facts are facts but theyre nothing without context, the latter of which is totally left out by fanboyish arguments.

Even when i was arguing about Prost being better then Senna i went above and beyond acknowledging, i put forward the context that Senna didnt finish as many races, but then looking even more in context you find out it was often his fault, whereas Prost made cars finish.

You can look at all that and work out no more context from it and then judge what you like from it, as long as everythings there.

But when the Hamilton fans refuse to accept he was favoured when he beat Alonso

Or Vettel fans that he has never won in a car that wont go down as one of the greatest in history. (Sorry i forgot Monza 2008 there, only once)

Or Alonso fans that despite his consistency hes not as good an on track car to car racer as Hamilton, infact nobody is bar Kobayashi.

Its just stupid, even more stupid that i feel compelled to say this every so often cause itll never stop, just an agenda push for MOST on here lets be honest.

Forumula1.net martyr we are now??

Killing myself for the sake of this forum? Decisions, Decisions..........

Tough job mate and I was just tossing so keep up the good work you are doing great as it is not easy especially with the likes of me .

[bud]

its fraf's way or its wrong...

[Blinky McSquinty]

I'm not amazed at all that when anyone offers any criticism of Hamilton his fans rush to his defence in droves. I expected nothing less than what happened, insults, and personal attacks. Even in a thread devoted to Vettel.

I use a very simple method to determine a driver's worth. If a team has the best car, such as the RB7, then it is a realistic expectation for the driver to qualify 1st or 2nd. Anything less and it's marked as a fail. So in the case of Ferrari last week, since they were currently considerd the 2nd best car, the qualifying effort from Alonso and Massa in getting 3rd and 4th was what was expected. They did what the team asked of them, they delivered.

And in the case of Vettel, he is in the best car, and thus it's a reasonable and realistic expectation that he qualifies 1st or 2nd, and finished 1st or 2nd. Of course, 1st gets a gold star. So what has he done but exactly that? He does qualify 1st or 2nd and finish 1st or 2nd. In terms of meeting expectations and delivering realistic results Vettel has run up a record of amazing consistency so far this season.

A lot happens during a grand prix weekend, and even for those who appear comfortable with their car's performance, have a hard and difficult job to bring the car home with success. Winning is not easy, even though it appears so on the TV screen. I've seen score of times when a driver appeared to be comfortably in the lead and just counting down the laps until the checkered flag only to have mishap land on him due to inattention. Indy this year is a good example, or Mansell's incident at Montreal. So just don't casually dismiss Vettel's efforts while leading a race as something simple and easy, you don't understand what's really going on in the cockpit, and how easy it is for things to go pear-shaped.

For many teams, the driver can be the weak link in the chain. If a team has the best car, they want a driver who regularly and consistently qualifies on pole and wins. Be it MotoGP, or NA$CAR, LeMans, or Formula One, this universal rule does apply for all. And it's a very, very good thing when a driver delivers on a team's expectations. And like it or not, Vettel is doing exactly that, delivering the goods.

So that's my suggestion that when you're thinking about a driver, compare their performance against the expected potential of the car. Of course luck and all that does happen, but over the course of the season, good luck and bad luck tend to even themselves out and a picture does form.

[What's Burning?]

I'm not amazed at all that when anyone offers any criticism of Hamilton his fans rush to his defence in droves. I expected nothing less than what happened, insults, and personal attacks. Even in a thread devoted to Vettel.

I use a very simple method to determine a driver's worth. If a team has the best car, such as the RB7, then it is a realistic expectation for the driver to qualify 1st or 2nd. Anything less and it's marked as a fail. So in the case of Ferrari last week, since they were currently considerd the 2nd best car, the qualifying effort from Alonso and Massa in getting 3rd and 4th was what was expected. They did what the team asked of them, they delivered.

And in the case of Vettel, he is in the best car, and thus it's a reasonable and realistic expectation that he qualifies 1st or 2nd, and finished 1st or 2nd. Of course, 1st gets a gold star. So what has he done but exactly that? He does qualify 1st or 2nd and finish 1st or 2nd. In terms of meeting expectations and delivering realistic results Vettel has run up a record of amazing consistency so far this season.

A lot happens during a grand prix weekend, and even for those who appear comfortable with their car's performance, have a hard and difficult job to bring the car home with success. Winning is not easy, even though it appears so on the TV screen. I've seen score of times when a driver appeared to be comfortably in the lead and just counting down the laps until the checkered flag only to have mishap land on him due to inattention. Indy this year is a good example, or Mansell's incident at Montreal. So just don't casually dismiss Vettel's efforts while leading a race as something simple and easy, you don't understand what's really going on in the cockpit, and how easy it is for things to go pear-shaped.

For many teams, the driver can be the weak link in the chain. If a team has the best car, they want a driver who regularly and consistently qualifies on pole and wins. Be it MotoGP, or NA$CAR, LeMans, or Formula One, this universal rule does apply for all. And it's a very, very good thing when a driver delivers on a team's expectations. And like it or not, Vettel is doing exactly that, delivering the goods.

So that's my suggestion that when you're thinking about a driver, compare their performance against the expected potential of the car. Of course luck and all that does happen, but over the course of the season, good luck and bad luck tend to even themselves out and a picture does form.

Great, that's how you feel. The insults and personal attacks aren't limited to Vettel fans if you haven't noticed. So I'm glad for all that can refrain from insults and personal attacks.

Now on to your argument, using your logic, ANY driver that can deliver a consistent result would the be as the thread says "The Best Driver On The Grid". Whether they consistently come in 12th or 8th or 1st as long as it's consistent to the ability of the car?

Well my opinion on "The Best Driver On The Grid" is a driver that can consistently deliver 3 or 4 grid spots higher than the car is capable of.

No attacks on Vettel, no personal insults on someone philosophy, just clear and logical reasoning that can be applied consistently throughout the grid.

[FRAFPDD]

its fraf's way or its wrong...

, Youve finally clocked on bud! You have to help spread the saviours message now your enlightened.


Hey that post count is the year Hamilton won his championship!

[What's Burning?]

I'm not saying he isn't, I'm simply saying I'd like more empirical proof.

1. Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 204
2. Mark Webber Red Bull 124
3. Fernando Alonso Ferrari 112
4. Lewis Hamilton McLaren 109
5. Jenson Button McLaren 109
6. Felipe Massa Ferrari 52
7. Nico Rosberg Mercedes Grand Prix 40
8. Nick Heidfeld Renault 34
9. Vitaly Petrov Renault 31
10. Michael Schumacher Mercedes Grand Prix 28
11. Kamui Kobayashi Sauber 25
12. Adrian Sutil Force India F1 10
13. Jaime Alguersuari Scuderia Toro Rosso 9
14. Sergio Perez Sauber 8
15. Sebastien Buemi Scuderia Toro Rosso 8
16. Rubens Barrichello Williams 4
17. Paul di Resta Force India F1 2
18. Pastor Maldonado Williams 0
19. Pedro de la Rosa Sauber 0
20. Jarno Trulli Lotus F1 0
21. Vitantonio Liuzzi HRT F1 Team 0
22. Jerome d` Ambrosio Virgin Racing 0
23. Heikki Kovalainen Lotus F1 0
24. Timo Glock Virgin Racing 0
25. Narain Karthikeyan HRT F1 Team 0
26. Daniel Ricciardo HRT F1 Team 0

Proof indeed that the RB7 is a dominant car and their drivers are doing with them what any competent F1 driver should be able to do, and Vettel is better than Webber. Empirical proof

[bud]

Well you better not post again in honour of Hammys win

[texasmr2]

I'm not amazed at all that when anyone offers any criticism of Hamilton his fans rush to his defence in droves. I expected nothing less than what happened, insults, and personal attacks. Even in a thread devoted to Vettel.

I use a very simple method to determine a driver's worth. If a team has the best car, such as the RB7, then it is a realistic expectation for the driver to qualify 1st or 2nd. Anything less and it's marked as a fail. So in the case of Ferrari last week, since they were currently considerd the 2nd best car, the qualifying effort from Alonso and Massa in getting 3rd and 4th was what was expected. They did what the team asked of them, they delivered.

And in the case of Vettel, he is in the best car, and thus it's a reasonable and realistic expectation that he qualifies 1st or 2nd, and finished 1st or 2nd. Of course, 1st gets a gold star. So what has he done but exactly that? He does qualify 1st or 2nd and finish 1st or 2nd. In terms of meeting expectations and delivering realistic results Vettel has run up a record of amazing consistency so far this season.

A lot happens during a grand prix weekend, and even for those who appear comfortable with their car's performance, have a hard and difficult job to bring the car home with success. Winning is not easy, even though it appears so on the TV screen. I've seen score of times when a driver appeared to be comfortably in the lead and just counting down the laps until the checkered flag only to have mishap land on him due to inattention. Indy this year is a good example, or Mansell's incident at Montreal. So just don't casually dismiss Vettel's efforts while leading a race as something simple and easy, you don't understand what's really going on in the cockpit, and how easy it is for things to go pear-shaped.

For many teams, the driver can be the weak link in the chain. If a team has the best car, they want a driver who regularly and consistently qualifies on pole and wins. Be it MotoGP, or NA$CAR, LeMans, or Formula One, this universal rule does apply for all. And it's a very, very good thing when a driver delivers on a team's expectations. And like it or not, Vettel is doing exactly that, delivering the goods.

So that's my suggestion that when you're thinking about a driver, compare their performance against the expected potential of the car. Of course luck and all that does happen, but over the course of the season, good luck and bad luck tend to even themselves out and a picture does form.

Great, that's how you feel. The insults and personal attacks aren't limited to Vettel fans if you haven't noticed. So I'm glad for all that can refrain from insults and personal attacks.

Now on to your argument, using your logic, ANY driver that can deliver a consistent result would the be as the thread says "The Best Driver On The Grid". Whether they consistently come in 12th or 8th or 1st as long as it's consistent to the ability of the car?

Well my opinion on "The Best Driver On The Grid" is a driver that can consistently deliver 3 or 4 grid spots higher than the car is capable of.

No attacks on Vettel, no personal insults on someone philosophy, just clear and logical reasoning that can be applied consistently throughout the grid.

Glad I refrained from my opinion lol!!! I'm kidding kid's I'm a kidder.

[Four mules as one]

This whole thing about Vettel not being able to overtake Hamilton at Silverstone for me shows more that he is thinking of his overall championship result. From what I saw here was a driver with a massive lead in the championship points that had no need to take any stupid risks and eliminate both himself and his competitor. Fair enough, he might not have won the race but you cannot win them all so the best thing is to collect as many points as possible. Its drivers like that that are intelligent and know what the most important part of the series is all about, the WDC. Go back to 1991 Portuguese Grand Prix and you will see Senna get second and cleary state that it was a very important race for him championship wise cause Mansell didn't finish. Senna happy with coming second? A year after he blew up at Jackie Stewart about not being satisfied with second, sounds like Ayrton was maturing like a fine red wine to me.

COrrect...which Hamilton never had the opportunity for so far in his career. He's been chasing for the past two years in the car which ISN"T the best.

Yes, in his rookie year he was leading and he lost it. However, he didn't lose it by himself by crashing out, it was a strategic call from McLaren to leave him on bald tyres in the wet for a bit too long wasn't it? And it was his 'rookie season' for crying out loud.

I don't understand why its tough for people to understand the mentality of a driver who has a nice cushion, and another who is chasing. The guy with the fastest car and a nice cushion has options. the guy with the slower car has absolutely none, except to race as hard as he can in the machinery he has.

Who's to say if the roles were reversed and Lewis was stuck behind Vettel, he'd force an overtake? You can't say that, as you've never seen Lewis in that situation. So basing this argument in backing Vettel's 'ingenuity' in race craft is void.

I know exactly what you mean. I was a massive Senna fan who was frustrated to hell in 92 and 93 because I knew Senna had to not only drive the balls off the thing but also the Williams had to have a bit of bad luck in order make my driver win and feature in the championship. But in this case I agree with Bernie. Seb, and this is only my opinion, is currently the best driver out there because he is making it look so easy and thats what the best do. I think if Lewis had a Red Bull it would be awesome to watch between the two but at the moment I think I'd just give Seb the upper hand on him in equal machinery cause he is so consistently quick and reads that tyre wear better than anyone. Lewis may have lost (or McLaren lost it for him) in 2007 but Seb won it at the same age and up against drivers of a higher calibre than Massa, who would have won the WDC had Lewis not passed Timo Glock on the last corner at the last race. But we could state that Kimi only won it in 2007 cause McLaren stuffed up handling the drivers situation that unfolded. All this really leads to is alot of great reminising between us of previous world championships and me sitting here typing about it when I probably should be mowing the lawn. I sure don't mind doing this but my wife probably hates your guts right now shhh, here she comes.

I think the fantastic thing currently about the whole 'who is the best between Lewis, Seb, Fernando', debate is that we have at least 3 gun drivers in Formula One who can lay claim to being the fastest of their generation. We didn't get that too much in the earlier part of the decade cause Schumacher and Ferrari dominated and in the late 90's it was only ever between 2 drivers (Schumacher/Hill and then Schumacher/Hakkinen). But this last two seasons has that same feel about it that the 80's had between Mansell, Senna, Piquet and Prost. I loved how they brought back the photo of the four drivers last year sitting on the wall with Bernie. And with the likes of DiRiesta and (I hope) Ricciardo coming through I think we may well get the best ever championships F1 has ever scene in the very near future.

I agree with the previous threads on the race of champions to see them all in equal cars would be fantastic but then Sebastian Loeb would probably beat all the F1 stars anyway. Hmmm, maybe its something about that name Sebastian??? Maybe Adrian Newey should just design every car in F1???

[andrew]

I'm not amazed at all that when anyone offers any criticism of Hamilton his fans rush to his defence in droves. I expected nothing less than what happened, insults, and personal attacks. Even in a thread devoted to Vettel.

You should have seen the site I just gave up on a couple weeks ago, this place is tame so far! Over the past couple months there has been a massive infestation of Hamiltonians. Context, truth, fact and reasoned debate and discussion have all suffered to the point that if you dare to say anything slightly negative towards our Lord God and Saviour (Hamiton) you are branded as a right wing Nazi and told to go join the KKK. Sad thing is I'm hardly exaggerating.

Now here's the really funny or tragic (depends on your humour) part. The very same people are more than happy to stick the boot into other drivers and do exactly the same things that they berate others about. On the whole Hamiltonians seem to be very thin skinned overly defensive hypocrites with persecution complexes.

However, I live in hope that some Hamiltonians retained some degree of common sense when they signed over their life savings to join the cult of Hamilton. I'm sure that Hamiltonians and non-Hamiltonians can conhabit on a forum together in peace and harmony. Maybe it's a crazy pipe dream but I live in hope.

Many a good forum has been dragged down to below the level of The News of the World with Hamiltonian missionary’s intolerance of those who choose not to share their faith and their sheer monopolisation of every conceivable thread thus chasing out anyone who does not want to be converted. Please let’s not let this happen here and keep the egos in check. We all support different drivers and different teams for various reasons but there comes a point when fanish flag waving becomes beating a dead horse in the name of fanboyism leading to things getting personnal.

Just thought you’d like to know. That’s all.

Anyway now that I'm off my soapbox and have done the "I have a dream..." bit, back to the topic of MrE thinking Vettel being the best driver out their.

[andrew]

I agree with the previous threads on the race of champions to see them all in equal cars would be fantastic but then Sebastian Loeb would probably beat all the F1 stars anyway. Hmmm, maybe its something about that name Sebastian??? Maybe Adrian Newey should just design every car in F1???

Just stick them in GP2 cars. Just saved you the cost of designing and building new cars. This idea is already more financially viable!

[bud]

Generalising Hamilton fans, thats very bipartisan of you.

[vaptin]

Well, comparing the driver to the car is one thing, it doesn't help when people feel compelled to compare driver to driver.

We don't know what would happen if Vettel was in the same car as Alonso or Hamilton, or anyone else that he hasn't been in the same car with. But I don't see how someone can assume that the other driver would instantly do better, the times Vettel's qualified behind the ability of the car, has been very rare. Probably too rare to make any real comparisons.

Vettel's messed up a few times, but crucially he delivered last year, and is delivering this year, and Redbull don't care for anything else from Vettel, so won't ask for anything else.

We don't know how variable Vettel's and this other driver's ability would be as a result of the car characteristics either.

[Four mules as one]

I agree with the previous threads on the race of champions to see them all in equal cars would be fantastic but then Sebastian Loeb would probably beat all the F1 stars anyway. Hmmm, maybe its something about that name Sebastian??? Maybe Adrian Newey should just design every car in F1???

Just stick them in GP2 cars. Just saved you the cost of designing and building new cars. This idea is already more financially viable!

No, I like Adrian Newey and would miss how brilliant he can make an F1 car go. Give him an unlimited budget and make 26 of the fastest racing cars the world has ever seen. In fact, bugger making them for drivers, they are emotional egotistical daddy's boys. Make them remote control or steered by robots or something. And when it all comes down to who is the best guy on the grid, Adrian Newey cleans them all up.