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#265379
Bernie changes opinions as often as he changes his Depends.


WIN :hehe:

Also, Vettel is indeed an excellent driver, definitely one of the top ones. But...usually he's not exciting in the same way Alonso and Hamilton are. He's more like an improved Button: smooth, quick, but not particularly riveting to watch.
#265380
In reference to Bernie's ideas I agree with him. I would replace DRS with the sprinkler system. Canada and Britain were awesome races due to the mixed conditions. I found the use of DRS in the drying conditions to be the most unracing like system ever introduced to F1. It cheats the spectator of real racing and true overtaking. Whereas the wet weather shows the real racers. So I guess I have to agree with both Bernie and JV (does this add me to the over the hill and out of touch list too?)
#265382
In reference to Bernie's ideas I agree with him. I would replace DRS with the sprinkler system. Canada and Britain were awesome races due to the mixed conditions. I found the use of DRS in the drying conditions to be the most unracing like system ever introduced to F1. It cheats the spectator of real racing and true overtaking. Whereas the wet weather shows the real racers. So I guess I have to agree with both Bernie and JV (does this add me to the over the hill and out of touch list too?)


And instead of DRS, mushrooms! And of course, banana peels. The banana peel dispenser could be mounted on top of the diffuser. :D
#265386

And instead of DRS, mushrooms! And of course, banana peels. The banana peel dispenser could be mounted on top of the diffuser. :D


Actually, that sounds cool. I can even hear David Coulthard saying, "as a driver, you've got to watch out for the unexpected banana otherwise it could completely wreck your chances at the undercut".
#265393
His winning method is in qualfying, starting first. One dimensional by definition to me.


Being able to go quick and qualify first on the pole is just one part of the entire race weekend. It's like a chess splayer, this is the P-K4 move. Maybe to you that's the entire picture, but there's still the race to win. I do happen to believe such attributes as racecraft, being calm when required, and being aggressive when needed and only going as fast as needed to win are other qualities that come into play during the race. And those are just a few examples, a race is a long and eventful event and it's all too easy to mess up and not finish as well as expected. But that's exactly why I consider him the natural successor to Michael Schumacher, being able to meet or exceed expectations on a regular and consistent basis.


Disagree again even more then last time, Vettel has so far shown, that is, its not hearsay or wild speculation, he has actually PROVED he is a one dimensional driver. If he wasnt one dimensional, or rather one dimensional in the area he is in, he might not be leading the years world championship.

But that still doesnt make it any less true, Senna was pretty much one dimensional, wet races came rarely and he was great in that but his way of winning was getting a dominant pole and making himself a big gap from the race start, its never Sennas wins people talk about its his poles.

We've seen countless times how docile Vettel is in terms of confidence when actually fighting other drivers, thats not his game, he might be average to ok in it, but definitely no more then that, his racecraft is average to poor, but he doesnt need it to be any better.....yet.

There are a few of your descriptions of Vettel like " being calm when required" or " only going as fast as needed to win" that seem so specific that it seems its clutching at straws to find anything other then Vettels speed. All in all, im saying everything im saying based on EVIDENCE i have to make a intial conclusion on it, i, like many other fans want to see Vettel plonked right in the situation Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna, Niki Lauda, Michael Schumacher, Lewis Hamilton, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikonnen and so on, where they win championships in undominant cars, with amazing teammates, until then hes unproven.


It's always fun and entertaining to see different viewpoints. For some fans, all they seek is pure aggression, pure aggression, and pure aggression. For others, including myself, we look for true signs of racecraft, intelligent decisions, and the ability to deliver results. One of my most memorable moments is watching Teo Fabi smoke the field on a start. It was a rolling start in endurance cars, and he was on pole. Well, he messed with a lot of heads, and that resulted in him getting at least a pure and clean ten second hole shot. Great stuff, the sign of intelligence.

And above all, Vettel drives with his head. Some fans insist that the true measure of a race driver is going toe-to-toe and battling it out. Sort of like battling bozos. Alll you find out is who's the most desperate and who's willing to crash a car.

Vettel is not the one-dimensional driver who's only response to any and all questions is to hunker down, crank up the aggression, and attempt to go quicker. No, there are better and smarter ways to achieve the same goal. For instance at Silverstone, Vettel was stuck behind a floundering Hamilton and losing tons of time as Alonso was disappearing.

So what did he do? He was close, and it was obvious that if a pass presented itself, he would have slipped by. But he didn't push the issue, kept the big picture in mind, and found a much easier way to pass Hamilton without risking contact. Of course he didn't attempt to force a pass with Hamilton, that would have been stupid. Regardless of how anyone feels about Hamilton, the points situation makes him desperate for points, and he has a recent history of contact with others. Nobody likes that, but it's the simple, factual truth.

So Vettel traded off some pace at the end to pass Hamilton, and honesty, he made it look so simple. Duck into the pits, fresh rubber, lay down a time good enough to pass Hamilton, and voila, fait accomplis. That is so much easier, and smarter, than risking it all in a pointless battle. To me, it's mind-blowing. His team had a problem in the pits, and instead of trying harder to make up and possibly resulting in more mistakes, he remained calm, didn't try anything stupid, and in the end, recovered to second place.

Yes,he didn't win. But he recovered from a problem and finished second.


On a personal note, I am horrified and disgusted that you would label Senna as being one-dimensional. Wow, I'm amazed that the nation of Brazil hasn't declared war on you yet, because that's one heck of an insult to what is arguably the greatest driver in Formula One history.

It really sickens me that some fans are willing to throw handfulls of dung in an attempt to smear other drivers in order to elevate the status of their hero. It's really low, and shows they don't have much to argue with except with handfulls of dung. Really sickening, really low, really pathetic.
#265398
It really sickens me that some fans are willing to throw handfulls of dung in an attempt to smear other drivers in order to elevate the status of their hero. It's really low, and shows they don't have much to argue with except with handfulls of dung. Really sickening, really low, really pathetic.


Welcome to the intraverted net, hurry put your flame suit on STAT!!!!!!
#265408
It's always fun and entertaining to see different viewpoints. For some fans, all they seek is pure aggression, pure aggression, and pure aggression. For others, including myself, we look for true signs of racecraft, intelligent decisions, and the ability to deliver results.

Yeah, you're exactly right, it's a difference of opinion that makes a horse race.

And above all, Vettel drives with his head. Some fans insist that the true measure of a race driver is going toe-to-toe and battling it out. Sort of like battling bozos. Alll you find out is who's the most desperate and who's willing to crash a car.

There are lots of yardsticks to measure greatness in driving, we choose to support the ones we like, but to belittle or downplay one skill over the other *IS* to say that you can be a great driver being one dimensional regardless of which trait you support. It can be said that because of Red Bull's dominance Vettel has been able to succeed very well, with great results with his style, while at the same time, given another car, another team, his style may simply not work. Sometimes it's not the style that wins, it's the situation, the circumstance. That's not an irrational thing to consider is it?

Vettel is not the one-dimensional driver who's only response to any and all questions is to hunker down, crank up the aggression, and attempt to go quicker. No, there are better and smarter ways to achieve the same goal. For instance at Silverstone, Vettel was stuck behind a floundering Hamilton and losing tons of time as Alonso was disappearing.


I agree, in the same way that Hamilton can't be reduced to a one dimensional, aggression, aggression, aggression type of driver.

So what did he do? He was close, and it was obvious that if a pass presented itself, he would have slipped by. But he didn't push the issue, kept the big picture in mind, and found a much easier way to pass Hamilton without risking contact. Of course he didn't attempt to force a pass with Hamilton, that would have been stupid. Regardless of how anyone feels about Hamilton, the points situation makes him desperate for points, and he has a recent history of contact with others. Nobody likes that, but it's the simple, factual truth.


Yeap it's all circumstantial, since we've not seen Vettel in the same situation we can't.... hey, wait a minute, YES we have seen Vettel in the same situation, just last year, and his desperation for points had him crashing into a lot of victims, :hehe: weird, that it happened just last year and we almost forgot about that.

So Vettel traded off some pace at the end to pass Hamilton, and honesty, he made it look so simple. Duck into the pits, fresh rubber, lay down a time good enough to pass Hamilton, and voila, fait accomplis. That is so much easier, and smarter, than risking it all in a pointless battle. To me, it's mind-blowing. His team had a problem in the pits, and instead of trying harder to make up and possibly resulting in more mistakes, he remained calm, didn't try anything stupid, and in the end, recovered to second place.


I certainly agree, if you have a weaknesses, you try to make up for them with your strengths. It's natural and it's a bi-directional argument.

Yes,he didn't win. But he recovered from a problem and finished second.


Yeap, and if he keeps it up, a second WDC is in the bag, nothing to discredit Vettel on that achievement, even though there are a handful of drivers on the grid that would have achieved the exact results given the dominance of the Reb Bull.
#265429
weird, that it happened just last year and we almost forgot about that.


I didn't. In 2010 Vettel did make some very poor decisions and did crash into others. But, if you didn't notice, this is 2011 and I know that people change, and some of them improve. And that's exactly what this is all about, how Vettel has grown and matured into a pretty dominating driver.

I certainly agree, if you have a weaknesses, you try to make up for them with your strengths. It's natural and it's a bi-directional argument.


It's not about any weakness, which to be honest I don't see in Vettel. It's about doing the smartest course of action. And that's generally my theme, that Vettel has matured into a thinking driver who keeps the big picture in mind, and doesn't get caught up in the heat of the moment. Why should he pursue a riskier course of action when he can do something that is easier, with a lot less risk, and smarter?

I love a good fight, just like many. But I also recognize that close combat is very risky, and in the long run, does not lead to a title. The smart drivers, for instance Schumacher or Johnson, know that the best way to win is to dominate, be smart, and avoid contact with others. Close combat is the last option when other strategies fail.
#265435
weird, that it happened just last year and we almost forgot about that.


I didn't. In 2010 Vettel did make some very poor decisions and did crash into others. But, if you didn't notice, this is 2011 and I know that people change, and some of them improve. And that's exactly what this is all about, how Vettel has grown and matured into a pretty dominating driver.

I certainly agree, if you have a weaknesses, you try to make up for them with your strengths. It's natural and it's a bi-directional argument.


It's not about any weakness, which to be honest I don't see in Vettel. It's about doing the smartest course of action. And that's generally my theme, that Vettel has matured into a thinking driver who keeps the big picture in mind, and doesn't get caught up in the heat of the moment. Why should he pursue a riskier course of action when he can do something that is easier, with a lot less risk, and smarter?

I love a good fight, just like many. But I also recognize that close combat is very risky, and in the long run, does not lead to a title. The smart drivers, for instance Schumacher or Johnson, know that the best way to win is to dominate, be smart, and avoid contact with others. Close combat is the last option when other strategies fail.


Yes, but domination currently is not an option for 22 of the 24 cars on the grid. So what are the other 22 drivers to do, sit and wait for next year?
#265447
To be the best you have to beat the best.Not Webber,Luizzi and Bourdais.


But, you don't do you? You just need a WDC, the teams invest far too much money to actually want to take chances and not win the easy way.

We get exciting championships because one team doesn't have a massive advantage, the competition's tight, but no team actually wants that.

They don't put in fast drivers for the sake of a show, if they can win the WDC with just one main driver.
#265454
To be the best you have to beat the best.Not Webber,Luizzi and Bourdais.


But, you don't do you? You just need a WDC
, the teams invest far too much money to actually want to take chances and not win the easy way.

We get exciting championships because one team doesn't have a massive advantage, the competition's tight, but no team actually wants that.

They don't put in fast drivers for the sake of a show, if they can win the WDC with just one main driver.


Yes you do.Damon Hill has a WDC and not many considered him as the best in his time. Same for Button.

Do you know what the cardinal sin in F1 is? ''Losing to your teammate''
When Vettel pairs with the best and beats them only then can he be the best. Until then his car is awesome and his teammate not a worthy adversary.
#265522
To be the best you have to beat the best.Not Webber,Luizzi and Bourdais.


But, you don't do you? You just need a WDC
, the teams invest far too much money to actually want to take chances and not win the easy way.

We get exciting championships because one team doesn't have a massive advantage, the competition's tight, but no team actually wants that.

They don't put in fast drivers for the sake of a show, if they can win the WDC with just one main driver.


Yes you do.Damon Hill has a WDC and not many considered him as the best in his time. Same for Button.

Do you know what the cardinal sin in F1 is? ''Losing to your teammate''
When Vettel pairs with the best and beats them only then can he be the best. Until then his car is awesome and his teammate not a worthy adversary.


This statement could be taken back against many of the previous world champions on beating their teammates.
2009 - Button (as you said not the best of his time) beat Barrichello (not the best)
2008 - Hamilton beat Kovalainen (as he easily should have).
2007 - Raikkonen beat Massa (as he easily should have).
2006 - Alonso beat Fisichella (as he easily should have).
2005 - Alonso beat Fisichella (once again - easy).
2004 - 2000 - Schumacher beats Barrichello (as he easily should have)
1999-98 - Hakkinen beat Coulthard (wouldn't say David was a consistently dominating driver)
1997 - Villeneuve beat Frentzen (Heinz Harald Who?)
96 - Hill beats Villeneuve (a rookie driver but only just beat him)
95 - Schumacher beats Herbert (destroys Johnny I would say)
94 - Schumacher beats Lehto/Verstappen (They couldn't touch him)
93 - Prost beats Hill (Rookie driver and as you say not the best of his time)
92 - Mansell beats Patrese (as he easily should have)
91 - Senna beats Berger (Berger similar to Coulthard, not consistent and not in Senna's league)
90 - Senna does it to Berger again
89 - PROST BEATS SENNA
88 - SENNA BEATS PROST
87 - PIQUET BEATS MANSELL

So therefore, I would suggest that Vettel is no different to any of the world champions, in regards to their beating their teammate, since the 1990 World Championhip. I would say that Seb won last year under very trying circumstances that involved quite a few incidents and mechanical breakdowns, but come one, he's the YOUNGEST ever world champion. Therefore, he's still a kid and naturally is going to make a few mistakes. But this year he has made very little and is dominating which shows he is a very intelligent driver and he's bloody quick. Just cause he hasn't teamed up with a Hamilton or and Alonso doesn't make him an unworthy champion. Those two won their championships against b-grade drivers too. In fact, I would rate Mark Webber easily in front of Kovalainen and Fisichella as a better driver.
#265531
To be the best you have to beat the best.Not Webber,Luizzi and Bourdais.


But, you don't do you? You just need a WDC
, the teams invest far too much money to actually want to take chances and not win the easy way.

We get exciting championships because one team doesn't have a massive advantage, the competition's tight, but no team actually wants that.

They don't put in fast drivers for the sake of a show, if they can win the WDC with just one main driver.


Yes you do.Damon Hill has a WDC and not many considered him as the best in his time. Same for Button.

Do you know what the cardinal sin in F1 is? ''Losing to your teammate''
When Vettel pairs with the best and beats them only then can he be the best. Until then his car is awesome and his teammate not a worthy adversary.


This statement could be taken back against many of the previous world champions on beating their teammates.
2009 - Button (as you said not the best of his time) beat Barrichello (not the best)
2008 - Hamilton beat Kovalainen (as he easily should have).
2007 - Raikkonen beat Massa (as he easily should have).
2006 - Alonso beat Fisichella (as he easily should have).
2005 - Alonso beat Fisichella (once again - easy).
2004 - 2000 - Schumacher beats Barrichello (as he easily should have)
1999-98 - Hakkinen beat Coulthard (wouldn't say David was a consistently dominating driver)
1997 - Villeneuve beat Frentzen (Heinz Harald Who?)
96 - Hill beats Villeneuve (a rookie driver but only just beat him)
95 - Schumacher beats Herbert (destroys Johnny I would say)
94 - Schumacher beats Lehto/Verstappen (They couldn't touch him)
93 - Prost beats Hill (Rookie driver and as you say not the best of his time)
92 - Mansell beats Patrese (as he easily should have)
91 - Senna beats Berger (Berger similar to Coulthard, not consistent and not in Senna's league)
90 - Senna does it to Berger again
89 - PROST BEATS SENNA
88 - SENNA BEATS PROST
87 - PIQUET BEATS MANSELL

So therefore, I would suggest that Vettel is no different to any of the world champions, in regards to their beating their teammate, since the 1990 World Championhip. I would say that Seb won last year under very trying circumstances that involved quite a few incidents and mechanical breakdowns, but come one, he's the YOUNGEST ever world champion. Therefore, he's still a kid and naturally is going to make a few mistakes. But this year he has made very little and is dominating which shows he is a very intelligent driver and he's bloody quick. Just cause he hasn't teamed up with a Hamilton or and Alonso doesn't make him an unworthy champion. Those two won their championships against b-grade drivers too. In fact, I would rate Mark Webber easily in front of Kovalainen and Fisichella as a better driver.


I think your comparison is a bit convenient in order to prove the point and therefore isn't a valid suggestion. The intent isn't for "the" world champion to beat their team mate. It's any driver beating their team mate as the only real measure of the driver can come when they're in identical cars and the quality of those team mates they've beaten.

These will always remain hypothetical arguments, and after a while become pointless and tiring but they're perpetually popular. Vettel has not beaten a team mate that was a world champion. That's only circumstantial, I understand and it's not proof that he wouldn't. While the argument (meaningful or not) that F1er is making, is that Hamilton has beaten two world champions in identical cars, one of which was during his rookie year going against a two time world champion.
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