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[McLaren Fan]

partially? haha yeah not a big deal at all was it

well this was one of the most exciting title races for ages and by taking points away from hamilton and alonso wouldn't have been fair to them or for the people that watch the sport.taking away constructor points was the only fair thing they could do but i thinkthe fine was a bit much.bmw and williams should have at least been fined or docked some constructor points

Sorry, but if you're driving in an illegal car you must be penalised. Why weren't Alonso and Hamilton penalised? Money.

Ferrari could say then LH and FA should have been DQ their points from the 1st half of the season because de la rosa was passing on information to FA about ferrari cars that gave him an advantage.

The information McLaren had was useless. There was no advantage. Also, Ferrari did come out and say that. Like I say, the FIA and Ecclestone had their own agendas for not ruining the drivers' championship.

so you think it would be fair to hand hamilton the championship at the expense of kimi.

Massa handed Kimi the championship in all reality thanks to some nice team gifts

the championship isnt won in the last race its a comulative effort of many races, say this happened at round 4 and Lewis gained those 3 points you guys wouldnt have given a toss, and if this did happen in round 4 im sure the appeal would have been a success!

Well put.

As I said on another thread, the fact we are having these debates over various rules, vendettas, politics and money shows that the FIA are not fit to run Formula One.

[racechick]

What about Kimmi's first win when the car was declared illegal?Why did he keep the points? He wouldn't be champion if those points had been removed and the petrol issue would be a mute point. You can bet your life points would have been removed had it been a McLaren that was illegal.

[tifosi]

Williams and BMWSauber had illegal fuel they had to be DQ from the race!

Didnt Hamilton illegally use two sets of tyres in practice? He didnt get moved back in the grid, because they did not want to ruin the championship, so instead, he just got fined. I think that the Williams and BMWs should have gotten fined. And even if the fuel was at regular temperature, Hamilton was too far back to ever reach them.

[deMuRe]

Williams and BMWSauber had illegal fuel they had to be DQ from the race!

Didnt Hamilton illegally use two sets of tyres in practice? He didnt get moved back in the grid, because they did not want to ruin the championship, so instead, he just got fined. I think that the Williams and BMWs should have gotten fined. And even if the fuel was at regular temperature, Hamilton was too far back to ever reach them.

Good points...

[bmwpower]

Like I said before the final race, a BMW will decide the championship and it did. Interesting enough, there's a backlash against McLaren in the F1 industry now because of how McLaren presented their appeal case. Many thought McLaren wanted to go to court to have the rules clarified, But Sauber, referring to the argument barrister Ian Mill took to the court, said: "Apparently their lawyer thought something else." "His strategy was clearly to establish the disqualification of Rosberg, Kubica and Heidfeld," Sauber added. I think Sam Micheal sums it up best, Sam Michael, Technical Director for Williams - the other team accused by McLaren of illegally chilling fuel in Brazil last month - said after the hearing that "the proper place" to seek a clarification about the rules is the Technical Working Group, not a court to alter the outcome of the Championship.

[tifosi]

According to the McLaren lawyers, they wanted the championship to be awarded to Hamilton.

McLaren lawyer wants title for Hamilton

15 November 2007

McLaren's lawyer has called for Hamilton to be handed the points of the Brazilian Grand Prix that would make him this year's F1 champion. In Thursday's FIA hearing in London McLaren's lawyer told the FIA that the BMW and Williams cars that finished ahead of the McLaren driver broke the rules on fuel temperatures and gained an advantage.


If the three involved cars are disqualified Hamilton would move up to fourth position in the race. With the five points he would score (instead of 2 points for seventh position) Hamilton would be the 2007 Formula 1 world champion instead of Kimi Raikkonen. Raikkonen beat Hamilton by just one single point at this moment, but if the FIA disqualifies the BMW and Williams cars, Hamilton would get the championship by two points over Raikkonen.

"The principle is clear," McLaren's lawyer Mr. Mill told Reuters. "If there was a breach, it was performance-enhancing. The sanction, I'm afraid, has to be disqualification. I ask you to address this as though it was any team at any stage of the season.

"Whenever in the past there has been a disqualification, there has been a re-classification... All we ask you to do is what normally happens."

A decision is expected on Friday.

[nikon133]

Four people were set up as fools, and they played their parts very good. Max, Bernie, Luca, Nigel Tozzi, Why was Ferrari even allowed to attend and even to present arguement at cool fuel hearing.

because the result would have directly impacted on ferrari. they never argued about the fuel just the fact the sport would be damaged by stripping the title from kimi and for once i agree with them!

What kind of reason is that?!? They were not one who complained about (McLaren) and they were not the ones involved (BMW and Williams). Other teams would get a few more points if BMW/Williams were disqualified... so they should have been involved as well. A lot of people have bet their money on LH/KR... so they should have been present as well..?

And what could Ferrari do if FIA did find BMW/Williams cars illegal..? Argue that, though BMW and Williams were wrong, they still can not be disqualified simply because Ferrari would loose..?

[nikon133]

but the sport wasnt damaged by stripping the constructor title from McLaren? kettle calling the pot black. im on fire with the saying tonight!!

it was partially but it didn't ruin the title race.

It did ruin constructors' title race... well, maybe not from Ferrari's point of view

[nikon133]

but the sport wasnt damaged by stripping the constructor title from McLaren? kettle calling the pot black. im on fire with the saying tonight!!

Mclaren had a bunch of ferrari information of course they had to be penalised! stripping the WCC points only would have been fair. the only problem was the huge fine. the sport survived its just everyone is looking for a scapegoat cause lewis lost the title

Actually I think the opposite. They had Ferrari's property so they should have been punished for possession, thus money fine should have been applied (and Ferrari should have received that money, IMHO). But there was nothing illegal or stolen found in McLaren cars, their cars earned points in legit way so they should have kept their points.

But as MM said, FIA was going after their hearts, and we all know for whom FIA's heart beats, don't we?

[nikon133]

Four people were set up as fools, and they played their parts very good. Max, Bernie, Luca, Nigel Tozzi, Why was Ferrari even allowed to attend and even to present arguement at cool fuel hearing.

And what is the outcome of exposing them as fools, mind you? Moral justice? Principal point proved? For what good?

I would hardly agree they are fools, anyway. Bunch of corrupted parasites tangled with immoral Ferrari's leadership - more likely. But fools they are not by definition, as they are ruling F1 and they are so powerful where they are they even don't have to pretend about being just and putting legal in front of personal.

[8-ball]

Four people were set up as fools, and they played their parts very good. Max, Bernie, Luca, Nigel Tozzi, Why was Ferrari even allowed to attend and even to present arguement at cool fuel hearing.

because the result would have directly impacted on ferrari. they never argued about the fuel just the fact the sport would be damaged by stripping the title from kimi and for once i agree with them!

What kind of reason is that?!? They were not one who complained about (McLaren) and they were not the ones involved (BMW and Williams). Other teams would get a few more points if BMW/Williams were disqualified... so they should have been involved as well. A lot of people have bet their money on LH/KR... so they should have been present as well..?

And what could Ferrari do if FIA did find BMW/Williams cars illegal..? Argue that, though BMW and Williams were wrong, they still can not be disqualified simply because Ferrari would loose..?

Ferrari points at that race won them the driver's title so they definetly should have a presence if the other teams wanted to come to the hearing then why not? If the BMW/Williams were DQ and the title awarded to LH then F1 as a sport would be over. LH didn't want to win the title that way now he hasn't why are people complaining?!

[bud]

Yeah Lewis didnt want to win the title that way, nor would he have wanted his team mate handing him points in the last few races of the year

[Martin]

Yeah Lewis didnt want to win the title that way, nor would he have wanted his team mate handing him points in the last few races of the year

Good points here.

Its strange though that FIA decsions involving McL go against them and decisions involving Ferrari tend to go in their favour. I know that history shows that Ferrari has been penalised by FIA in the past but only on cut 'n dried or minor issues. Thats the way it seems.

This is part of a comment from Martin Whitmarsh :-

Our appeal was merely a logical and procedural step in the process begun by the FIA Technical Delegate’s written report. We hope that this fuel temperature issue does not remain unresolved in Formula One next year but we look forward to working with the FIA and the teams on clarifying matters to avoid a similar situation occurring again."

Seems fair enough. This is part of the FIA reply:-

"Following a report from the Technical Delegate indicating that the temperature of fuel pumped into the cars N°9 - Nick Heidfeld, N°10 - Robert Kubica, N°16 - Nico Rosberg and N°17 - Kazuki Nakajima, was more than 10 degrees centigrade below ambient temperature, the Stewards of the Meeting met to consider whether a penalty should be imposed. Having heard the evidence they decided not to impose a penalty as they had sufficient doubt as to both the temperature of the fuel on board the car and to the true ambient temperature.

I dont understand this. Where does this data come from? If FIA has access to this data then why are they not sure if the tempeture was right or not? If FIA does not have access to the data then how did this come about? It all seems half cocked to me.
Questions for FIA - What caused the stewards to have a meeting? They must have had some data that showed fuel temps. apparently 10 degrees low. Well, was it or not? It doesn't need a meeting to decide does it? Its not rocket science is it? Either the temp was right or it was 10 dgrees below. Which was it.? How can there be doubt? Even about the ambient temp!! do we really beleive that?

Smacks of dishonesty or incompetence to me.

Shall we have a whip round folks and buy the FIA some thermometors?

[nikon133]

Four people were set up as fools, and they played their parts very good. Max, Bernie, Luca, Nigel Tozzi, Why was Ferrari even allowed to attend and even to present arguement at cool fuel hearing.

because the result would have directly impacted on ferrari. they never argued about the fuel just the fact the sport would be damaged by stripping the title from kimi and for once i agree with them!

What kind of reason is that?!? They were not one who complained about (McLaren) and they were not the ones involved (BMW and Williams). Other teams would get a few more points if BMW/Williams were disqualified... so they should have been involved as well. A lot of people have bet their money on LH/KR... so they should have been present as well..?

And what could Ferrari do if FIA did find BMW/Williams cars illegal..? Argue that, though BMW and Williams were wrong, they still can not be disqualified simply because Ferrari would loose..?

Ferrari points at that race won them the driver's title so they definetly should have a presence if the other teams wanted to come to the hearing then why not? If the BMW/Williams were DQ and the title awarded to LH then F1 as a sport would be over. LH didn't want to win the title that way now he hasn't why are people complaining?!

I'm not complaining - I prefer Kimi to LH. I'm just saying, Ferrari had no place there. They were not DIRECTLY involved. Indirectly yes, they could have lost driver's title (in theory, at least) but indirectly many others were involved - a few points more for a lesser teams might bring them more money and sponsors and help them survive another season, for example (and survival is hardly less important than one title more or less). In that race, Kimi won 10 points and those points were safe. Title was not, but hey - if BMW/Williams are found guilty, they are guilty, no matter Ferrari likes it or not.

And honestly, there even was no need for their physical presence - it's not like FIA would bring up ruling that might damage Ferrari, now, would they? I think they just wanted to enjoy McLaren's disappointment and crap out some more garbage about "justice"... it's a same thing like Flavio has, more dirt in your pocket, bigger mouth on yer face...

[nikon133]

Yeah Lewis didnt want to win the title that way, nor would he have wanted his team mate handing him points in the last few races of the year

Good points here.

Its strange though that FIA decsions involving McL go against them and decisions involving Ferrari tend to go in their favour. I know that history shows that Ferrari has been penalised by FIA in the past but only on cut 'n dried or minor issues. Thats the way it seems.

This is part of a comment from Martin Whitmarsh :-

Our appeal was merely a logical and procedural step in the process begun by the FIA Technical Delegate’s written report. We hope that this fuel temperature issue does not remain unresolved in Formula One next year but we look forward to working with the FIA and the teams on clarifying matters to avoid a similar situation occurring again."

Seems fair enough. This is part of the FIA reply:-

"Following a report from the Technical Delegate indicating that the temperature of fuel pumped into the cars N°9 - Nick Heidfeld, N°10 - Robert Kubica, N°16 - Nico Rosberg and N°17 - Kazuki Nakajima, was more than 10 degrees centigrade below ambient temperature, the Stewards of the Meeting met to consider whether a penalty should be imposed. Having heard the evidence they decided not to impose a penalty as they had sufficient doubt as to both the temperature of the fuel on board the car and to the true ambient temperature.

I dont understand this. Where does this data come from? If FIA has access to this data then why are they not sure if the tempeture was right or not? If FIA does not have access to the data then how did this come about? It all seems half cocked to me.
Questions for FIA - What caused the stewards to have a meeting? They must have had some data that showed fuel temps. apparently 10 degrees low. Well, was it or not? It doesn't need a meeting to decide does it? Its not rocket science is it? Either the temp was right or it was 10 dgrees below. Which was it.? How can there be doubt? Even about the ambient temp!! do we really beleive that?

Smacks of dishonesty or incompetence to me.

Shall we have a whip round folks and buy the FIA some thermometors?

Long time ago, in a place I used to live before NZ, I had a traffic accident. A guy drove his car into intersection on red and hit my car (going on green).

A guy initially admited he went through red, and it was documented in police report, confirmed by other drivers and pedestrians picked as witneses.

However, 2 months latter judge rejected and closed case as there were "not enough evidences to determine who's guilty". As a result I had to fix my own car after getting rid of bandages for dislocated sholder (at least medical part and rehabilitation didn't cost me any).

And that is how CORRUPTION works.