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[cir34]

it doesnt matter if it was known by a 100 people. the information was given to them by a employee of their team who had worked previously at mclaren. in the case of mclaren their employees were recieving and asking for information from an employee of ferrari.

The only material difference in my opinion is that the first case involved two people giving each other information, while the second involved one person bringing information with them. If the Renault transgression is proven, the offence is the same.

so to follow your train of thought if i work as an engineer designing the brake system for bmw and move to renault and redesign the system for renault based on my knowledge of what we did at bmw that is legitimate but if i take a drawing of the system with me to renault and once i am there i show the drawing to 15 engineers and we decide that the one at renault is better and we dont change it then reanault are a bunch of cheaters. to you this is the same as if i would have stayed at bmw and passed the information of the brake system to a buddy of mine at renault and whlie i am at it my buddy also asks for the race strategy and 700 pages of information on the car

[Ron Dennis]

The information drain is common, for instance when John Bernard left McLaren and went to Ferrari - do you think he kept all the information he gathered whilst at McLaren to himself? No I would say all the inovations that McLaren paid him to develop on their behalf was part of the deal when he moved and given freely to Ferrari.

Ron Dennis is a top class manager and was on the s*** end of some very peculiar sticks.

[darwin dali]

And what about this?

"In the particular case of the tuned mass damper, these had already been deemed illegal by the FIA and therefore the drawing was of no value. The suspension damper drawing hinted that the McLaren design might be similarly considered illegal and a subsequent clarification from the FIA confirmed this based upon our crude interpretation of the concept."

McLaren doesn't cheat and RD is a top class manager - yeah, and Michael Jackson and Elton John like women!

[cir34]

it doesnt matter if it was known by a 100 people. the information was given to them by a employee of their team who had worked previously at mclaren. in the case of mclaren their employees were recieving and asking for information from an employee of ferrari.

Ferrari gave a McLaren employee the information. An ex-McLaren employee took information he was not meant to and gave it to Renault who shared it about their team. To me, that's far worse than McLaren's offense, especially given that the information Renault possessed wasn't know by everybody buy and large down the pit lane.

i agree the exmac took information he wasnt supposed to and unless the reason he was hired was bringing that information and not his knowledge renault have not done anything wrong. in the case of mclaren employees of the team were recieving information from ferrari and were actually soliciting information.

now if it comes out that when the exmac was at mclaren he was approached by renault to pass over information and that was why he switched teams totally different ball game. that is why i am surprised teams let people move around during the season seems to me they are opening themselves to a very dangerous situation.

[Ron Dennis]

They both like women.....

and men (and little boys)

[onelapdown]

Teams regularly research things when they're not sure about the legality - it's only when they use them in a race weekend that these components become illegal. As far as I am aware no-one has said McLaren where actually using these parts.

[cir34]

The information drain is common, for instance when John Bernard left McLaren and went to Ferrari - do you think he kept all the information he gathered whilst at McLaren to himself? No I would say all the inovations that McLaren paid him to develop on their behalf was part of the deal when he moved and given freely to Ferrari.

Ron Dennis is a top class manager and was on the s*** end of some very peculiar sticks.

that is one of the reasons people move from one team to another. teams buy other teams knowledge and people sell other teams knowledge and we all accept it as legitimate as long as there are no drawings or cds because if there is we all cry out ¨ cheaters ¨ seems to me we are a bunch of hypocrites

[Ron Dennis]

Maybe we are (hypocrites) but the information trading is a common thing - something all teams partake in.

Some members of McLaren got caught with their hands in the cookie jar....but I suspect the cookie jar could tell a few stories if it could speak.

[cir34]

Maybe we are (hypocrites) but the information trading is a common thing - something all teams partake in.

Some members of McLaren got caught with their hands in the cookie jar....but I suspect the cookie jar could tell a few stories if it could speak.

have to agree with you on that. i hope they get their act together and we can get back to arguing about races and drivers.

btw what part of florida are you in.

[Ron Dennis]

by the beach

[Mike_Hawthorne]

Maybe we are (hypocrites) but the information trading is a common thing - something all teams partake in.

Indeed. The good Tony Vandervell ran a Ferrari GP car known as "The Thinwall Special" before he built his own cars. Goes back many years.

[nikon133]

And what about this?

"In the particular case of the tuned mass damper, these had already been deemed illegal by the FIA and therefore the drawing was of no value. The suspension damper drawing hinted that the McLaren design might be similarly considered illegal and a subsequent clarification from the FIA confirmed this based upon our crude interpretation of the concept."

McLaren doesn't cheat and RD is a top class manager - yeah, and Michael Jackson and Elton John like women!

Some of the best MJ's and EJ's friends are women... so I guess you're right, they do like women; some of them at least. What's your point..?

[nikon133]

What FIA started with McLaren will grow into a big transfer disaster, me think. Who'll have guts to employ someone like Ross Brown and likes..?

[Ron Dennis]

I hope the whole affair blows up in Max Mosley’s face - he set a standard which he MUST now adhere to

Thus Renault - no points in 2008 and a $100,000,000 fine

Even better would be that Renault AND McLaren withdraw from Formula 1, Ferrari have no competition - which is how the Ferrari lot want it - Ferrari fans toss themselves silly over Ferrari’s dominance - Ferrari fans run out of sperm and thus cleanse the gene pool a little - F1 goes bankrupt because no one wants to watch a Ferrari advert borefest manufactured by the team from Marrenelo and the FIA…..and out of the ashes rises a great new series where the teams/fans are treat with a little more respect that they are now.

Can you tell which parts I am joking about yet?

[raithrover]

Ferrari fans running out of sperm?