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[racechick]

I personally doubt it'd even be 3, most seasons anyway (this is a one off season in that respect, in recent times it's only really been two teams - Brawn/Red Bull, Ferrari/McLaren, Renault/Ferrari, Renault/McLaren etc etc). Having championships where the title is more or less guaranteed to only go to one of two or possibly three drivers is, for me, a massive step backwards, to the days where one car would be so dominant that it was a given that one of them would get the title before the season even started. At least now 4 or more drivers start each season with a realistic chance of glory. I guess this is really a discussion for another time and place though.

Like you i don't like unfairness but sadly there seems to be no real solution that would have a knock on effect elsewhere and cause other problems. Certainly i am yet to hear one. Perhaps simply banning radio contact is a possible way to prevent orders being given, but again that would have implications elsewhere, and is still not totally immune to team orders.

Thats a good idea, banning the radio! But then theyd start putting funny cryptic messages on the pitboards. The drivers would be so intent on looking at them, theyd crash But I think you have somethin here. Im going to think on that idea and come up with a solution

[scotty]

I think it should be done regardless, leave the drivers to manage their own fuel loads and car settings rather than having all the intensely technical stuff basically done for them by the guys in the garage!

[darwin dali]

I think it should be done regardless, leave the drivers to manage their own fuel loads and car settings rather than having all the intensely technical stuff basically done for them by the guys in the garage!

The very fact that there is team radio, pit boards, telemetry, etc., etc., is part of why F1 is a TEAM SPORT!
If you don't like that kind of high-tech communication and intervention from outside the car, then go watch Paris - Dakar or somtin'

[spankyham]

I think it should be done regardless, leave the drivers to manage their own fuel loads and car settings rather than having all the intensely technical stuff basically done for them by the guys in the garage!

The very fact that there is team radio, pit boards, telemetry, etc., etc., is part of why F1 is a TEAM SPORT!
If you don't like that kind of high-tech communication and intervention from outside the car, then go watch Paris - Dakar or somtin'

+1

[spankyham]

...the events of Turkey are unrelated to this Topic and the rule, and quite why the FiA accepted Ferrari's ludicrous assertion that they are somehow related is beyond me. The rule is (or rather was) perfectly well understood, sensical and entirely necessary.

I think you are in total denial, or you just haven't actually read the rule. To be absolutely clear, here it is:-
39.1 Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.
There is no reference to what, where, when, how or why an order is given, it simply says an order that interferes with a race result is prohibited. So "holding station when you could pass is exactly the same breach as letting someone pass. They both interfere with the race.

It's Ferrari's preposterous legal defence (We didn't do it, except we did, but so did everyone else, except they didn't, so it's okay)

Don't misrepresent Ferrari's defense. Firstly, read it so you know what you are talking about. I have already posted the link, but here is its again http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wmsc/2010/Documents/08092010a-wmsc-decision.pdf
To correct your misrepresentation to summarize Ferrari's defense was as follows:-
1) No mandatory order was given
2) Information was provided to Felipe
3) Felipe made a personal (not team decision) to allow Fernando to pass
Ferrari made another submission to the hearing in that the penalty applied by the stewards was not equitable in that Team Orders had previously been given and the perpetrators received no penalty. Here Ferrari provided the examples of Germany 08 and Turkey 10.

But don't sit there and suggest that people are unreasonable for disagreeing with Ferrari, who are convicted cheaters

You must not leave out that McLaren are also found to have breached the same rule on the two nominated occasions.

This entire Turkey argument predicates itself on the fallacious assertions that:

1 All communications with the drivers constitute team orders
- This is despite the fact that what "team orders" refers to, an instruction to allow a teammate to finish ahead, is well-established

100% wrong. Read the rule - I have quoted it above. It in no way mentions anything about allowing a teammate to finish ahead, it covers any and all orders that interfere with the race result. Please don't make things up to suit your argument.

No matter how you twist this or dislike it the facts remain that Ferrari (once) and McLaren (twice), in the decision of the WMSC have breached exactly the same rule 39.1

[nish2280]

turned the wick up for a pass

fuel is critical during a race not only for samples by the scrutineers but also to finish above the minimum weight.

Exactly, how come Jenson didn't do the same? for just the same 1 pass?

Yes, i understand fuel is critical for various reasons........ still does not mean we know Mclaren didnt have enough to turn the wick up for an extra pass or two. What i'm saying is: we don't know.
Nobody asked for extra proof because nobody cared. The same with Vettel's brake issues... nobody cares if he actually allowed Webber by.

youre impossible to debate with.

Dont worry Bud, thats a natural response when you are on the loosing side of a discussion.

[scotty]

I think it should be done regardless, leave the drivers to manage their own fuel loads and car settings rather than having all the intensely technical stuff basically done for them by the guys in the garage!

The very fact that there is team radio, pit boards, telemetry, etc., etc., is part of why F1 is a TEAM SPORT!
If you don't like that kind of high-tech communication and intervention from outside the car, then go watch Paris - Dakar or somtin'

It was a team sport before telemetry and good quality radios etc! By that logic why not just re-allow pit to car data transmissions and have them do ALL the technical stuff like gear and brake bias changes and engine settings, and just let the drivers simply accelerate, brake and turn? It would be stupid. I like the idea of having drivers run their own races rather than computer calculations, it's almost a completely forgotten skill in f1.


I just realised, you could easily stop any doubt with team orders by getting rid of the WDC!

[vaptin]

It is a team sport. The drivers owe a lot to the team, they bulid their car, advise them on their setup etc.

The WDC is a bit of a sham so to speak anyway, we all know its not really a contest of the drivers inherent ability, its to do with the car, luck, team stragety etc which all increase/decrease his standing in the WDC.

There can only be one WDC winner, but there are two drivers per team. That just doesn't go, and sometimes the team feels that their best bet is to support one driver for the WDC, maybe it was too early this time around, but in that case it's just another bad decision by the team that decreases their chances of a WDC.

No one here objects to team orders when one driver is mathematically out of the championship, what we object to is Austria 01, but Germany 10 was somewhere in between, was Massa effectively out of the championship? Was Ferrari's hand forced into the gamble by by points gap between the other contenders?

Meh, Andrew Benson's blog pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter.

[scotty]

No one here objects to team orders when one driver is mathematically out of the championship, what we object to is Austria 01, but Germany 10 was somewhere in between, was Massa effectively out of the championship? Was Ferrari's hand forced into the gamble by by points gap between the other contenders?

People will say he was mathematically still in it, but that really is flawed because realistically he was no where near a title challenge and hadn't been for ages. The team has to make decisions on a realistic basis and so while i don't necessarily like actions of this nature, i can understand why they did it and accept it in that respect.

[f1ea]

"Team orders carried out in a way that it looks unpleasant to the fans of opposing teams and media, and that may or may not affect the final outcome of the race, are prohibited".

Thats even more insulting to fans. Fans are not idiots.

And yet somewhat ironically and hilariously, that is exactly the way the current rules are playing out.

It sounds insulting when it's written down as a rule. But somehow it doesnt when it is simply a "wish" some fans have.
I dont think the "wish" in itself is flawed, it is a completely reasonable desire to be able to see everyone giving their best and racing for the win all the time. But lets face it, there are times when for various reasons, this doesn't happen. Regardless of having team orders or not.

So then it comes to: is the driver bigger than the team's interest?
Did Sauber care how de La Rosa would feel when they ousted him for Heidfeld? how about Karun?

People will say he was mathematically still in it, but that really is flawed because realistically he was no where near a title challenge and hadn't been for ages. The team has to make decisions on a realistic basis and so while i don't necessarily like actions of this nature, i can understand why they did it and accept it in that respect.

I think around that time sombedoy gave a list of which drivers were still "mathematically" in the fight for WDC. But the teams rarely work for the longest farthest possibility... They want the most realistic/tangible positive result AT THE MOMENT.

I think the vast majority of fans want fair racing for all drivers. What incentive has Feilipe Massa got now? And how much fun is it for a Massa fan? Thing is felippe is so nice he doesnt make a fuss and gets walked over and its not fair.

What incentive has Adrian Sutil? how about........ Kobayashi? and even Kubica?
They all know no matter how much they try they will not get the WDC. They may know that despite them "thinking" they are better, faster whatever than let's say... Webber or Alonso........ they still can't challenge them for the WDC. It was never made to be fair. Karun chandhok was "maybe" better than Yamamoto..... tough luck.

Felipe is so nice, but he is not only being nice. He knows he is sitting in a car where he can come up with impressive results, whereas if he was at Sauber, he'd be worrying not to get a blown engine or a pit stop mess up. He knows even after he got his injury, his seat was never in danger, despite OVERWHELMING competition. He knows if he decided to leave Ferrari....... he'd have to go into shark waters to find a contract. He also knows, if he starts getting better results than Alonso, he'd be the one certifying himself like he did with Kimi. So, he knows what he has to do.

Its the same Jenson is doing, except, Jenson and Lewis are almost even and both reasonably in the same position for the championship run.

[bud]

A driver can only measure themselves against their team mate. Ofcourse not every driver can win the title but that doesnt mean they dont go out there and have that racers instict. So yes Sutil Koby and Kubica arent in with a shot for the title but atleast they can race and arent having to pull aside for a team mate half way through a season!

[vaptin]

A driver can only measure themselves against their team mate. Ofcourse not every driver can win the title but that doesnt mean they dont go out there and have that racers instict. So yes Sutil Koby and Kubica arent in with a shot for the title but atleast they can race and arent having to pull aside for a team mate half way through a season!

Massa had his chance though, he's been with Ferrari long enough to know it was coming eventually.

[bud]

A driver can only measure themselves against their team mate. Ofcourse not every driver can win the title but that doesnt mean they dont go out there and have that racers instict. So yes Sutil Koby and Kubica arent in with a shot for the title but atleast they can race and arent having to pull aside for a team mate half way through a season!

Massa had his chance though, he's been with Ferrari long enough to know it was coming eventually.

another crap excuse. Excuses excuses from you lambs!

[vaptin]

A driver can only measure themselves against their team mate. Ofcourse not every driver can win the title but that doesnt mean they dont go out there and have that racers instict. So yes Sutil Koby and Kubica arent in with a shot for the title but atleast they can race and arent having to pull aside for a team mate half way through a season!

Massa had his chance though, he's been with Ferrari long enough to know it was coming eventually.

another crap excuse. Excuses excuses from you lambs!

Why is it crap? Massa had no retirements, Alonso's made a lot of mistakes and was still ahead of him in Germany. If Massa wanted to have his shot at a WDC this year he needed to convince his team its worth backing him for, he owes Ferrari a lot more than they owe him and they clearly aren't going to be overly sympathetic to him losing out on a race win when the team is thinking of the WDC.

[bud]

being in the lead of the German GP and going on to win it would have averted any doubt dont you think