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#215349
The WMSC admitted other teams had used team orders in the passed but had not been punished. It doesn't matter, in reference to Ferrari getting of whether the incident in Turkey was one of them or not, but if they were there at all. Brundel believes so, a lot of people in the f1 paddock seem to be saying "all teams use team orders". Really, Ferrari just got the 100k fine for making it so obvious, the FIA's hands were tied. punish Ferrari and they'll simply counter legally by demanding the FIA inflict punishments on all these other incidents with team orders - that'll be a mess.

Not only that, but Jean Todt's words about how you have to "prove it from a legal perspective" suggests Ferrari were also prepared to take it to court claiming the FIA diddn't have enough grounds to punish them, and the FIA weren't sure if they'll win.
#215369
Cause it has nothing to do with whether you like Mclaren or Ferrari. And more to do with whether you choose to be oblivious to the fact that the rule as it is makes no sense and that not only Ferrari or Mclaren use team orders, but eberyone does, and they do affect the outcome of races.

THEN WHY KEEP BRINGING UP THE MCLAREN FAN THING? :banghead:

You're executing a bait and switch. NONE of the arguments posed involving weasel words like "once Jenson and Lewis are involved" have had anything to do with asserting that the rule makes no sense, they've been constructed on the premise that McLaren telling Button to conserve fuel and Ferrari giving Massa a (thinly) veiled message to let Alonso past are the same thing (which they clearly are not) and that if the former is okay therefore, logically, the latter is too.

And there you go again with the weasel words. Nobody is choosing to be oblivious to anything, the events of Turkey are unrelated to this Topic and the rule, and quite why the FiA accepted Ferrari's ludicrous assertion that they are somehow related is beyond me. The rule is (or rather was) perfectly well understood, sensical and entirely necessary. It's Ferrari's preposterous legal defence (We didn't do it, except we did, but so did everyone else, except they didn't, so it's okay) that has muddied the waters. Now, fair enough, re-write the rule to make it clearer, closing the loophole Ferrari and the FiA (imagine that they) have discovered. But don't sit there and suggest that people are unreasonable for disagreeing with Ferrari, who are convicted cheaters, and the FiA, an organisation so inconsistent it's practically schizophrenic.

This entire Turkey argument predicates itself on the fallacious assertions that:

1 All communications with the drivers constitute team orders
- This is despite the fact that what "team orders" refers to, an instruction to allow a teammate to finish ahead, is well-established
2 Button did not need to save fuel
- Something we have no evidence for, and plenty of (admittedly inconclusive) evidence against. The burden of proof is on the accuser, the one challenging the established facts.
3 The only possible reason for not believing that McLaren were attempting to prevent Button from going into attack mode purely to allow Lewis to win is some inherent bias, and the only reasonable conclusion is that McLaren were manipulating the race result, because Lewis was told not to expect JB to pass
- This despite the fact that it there is nothing unreasonable about seeing that the McLarens had been going virtually flatout for most of the race to keep up with the Red Bulls, and Jenson could easily genuinely have needed to save fuel (As seems likely considering he was told after his opportunistic pass - he's a racing driver - that the fuel situation was "now critical"). If you can prove he had enough fuel to keep the engine turned up, by all means, let's see it.
#215371
Cause it has nothing to do with whether you like Mclaren or Ferrari. And more to do with whether you choose to be oblivious to the fact that the rule as it is makes no sense and that not only Ferrari or Mclaren use team orders, but eberyone does, and they do affect the outcome of races.

The WAY the team orders were used by Ferrari was upsetting, but this way has no meaning in regards to the rule itself. So, in order to be eloquent with what the majority of team order dislikers say, the rule should read something like:

"Team orders carried out in a way that it looks unpleasant to the fans of opposing teams and media, and that may or may not affect the final outcome of the race, are prohibited".


Thats even more insulting to fans. Fans are not idiots.
#215373
"Team orders carried out in a way that it looks unpleasant to the fans of opposing teams and media, and that may or may not affect the final outcome of the race, are prohibited".


Thats even more insulting to fans. Fans are not idiots.


And yet somewhat ironically and hilariously, that is exactly the way the current rules are playing out.
#215375
"Team orders carried out in a way that it looks unpleasant to the fans of opposing teams and media, and that may or may not affect the final outcome of the race, are prohibited".


Thats even more insulting to fans. Fans are not idiots.


And yet somewhat ironically and hilariously, that is exactly the way the current rules are playing out.


Thats not everyones opinion.
#215376
"Team orders carried out in a way that it looks unpleasant to the fans of opposing teams and media, and that may or may not affect the final outcome of the race, are prohibited".


Thats even more insulting to fans. Fans are not idiots.


And yet somewhat ironically and hilariously, that is exactly the way the current rules are playing out.


Thats not everyones opinion.


Nope, but it is what is extremely strongly suggested (basically to the point of being undeniable) by how this particular event has been handled in comparison to the numerous other examples of 'subtle' yet still pretty obvious team orders in play that have occured since the ban in 2002. I mean, you could name more than a handful from 2007 and 2008 alone!
#215377
"Team orders carried out in a way that it looks unpleasant to the fans of opposing teams and media, and that may or may not affect the final outcome of the race, are prohibited".


Thats even more insulting to fans. Fans are not idiots.


And yet somewhat ironically and hilariously, that is exactly the way the current rules are playing out.


Thats not everyones opinion.


Nope, but it is what is extremely strongly suggested (basically to the point of being undeniable) by how this particular event has been handled in comparison to the numerous other examples of 'subtle' yet still pretty obvious team orders in play that have occured since the ban in 2002. I mean, you could name more than a handful from 2007 and 2008 alone!


Then once again the FIA have badly failed. They have a rule that you can break so long as its broken sneakily and if you break it flagrantly...well thats not so bad either. This is racing and thats what the drivers should be doing. If its a team sport then the drivers should share the car. Racing fans dont want to see certain drivers disadvantagd form early on in the season because their team mate isnt prepared to race for a win and the team support this demand. Without the fans F1 is nothing and fans want to see racing
#215379
It's easy to say the FIA are the ones that have failed here, but really how can they win? They could enforce the rules more vigorously but then some will still complain at some point. After all, it is the teams themselves who are the ones circumventing the rules. As for sharing cars, there is Le Mans and GT racing for that. Perhaps all the people who think that is the way to go and don't like how things are in F1 should go and watch that instead. But i doubt they will!
#215381
Then one car per team, because its stupid at the moment.
#215382
Which is all well and good, but that is basically akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face - F1 would most likely be far more one sided and uncompetitive with one car teams, and i think we all know it. This whole situation is due to a rule that was always unenforcable, and only created, ironically, for/to appease fans in the first place.
#215383
Then one car per team, because its stupid at the moment.

That's not a great argument, to be honest.
Just because there are 2 cars, it doesn't mean it's not a team sport.
F1 has always been a team sport, and scotty is right, FIA have something really tricky in their hands.

If they leave the team orders illegal, part of the fans wouldn't be happy about it whilst the teams would still manage to make team orders nonetheless; if they make team orders legal, the other part of the fans would complain, although there probably wouldn't be an increase in the number of team orders issued or in how clear they appear to the fans/other teams.
#215384
Which is all well and good, but that is basically akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face - F1 would most likely be far more one sided and uncompetitive with one car teams, and i think we all know it. This whole situation is due to a rule that was always unenforcable, and only created, ironically, for/to appease fans in the first place.


How could it be one sided if there wasnt a team mate to treat dirty?
Theyd focus all their attention on one driver and it could be a team sport. And so the fans should be appeased, they're the bread and butter. No fans, no tv, no sponsors, no money, no F1.

If they leave the team orders illegal, part of the fans wouldn't be happy about it whilst the teams would still manage to make team orders nonetheless; if they make team orders legal, the other part of the fans would complain, although there probably wouldn't be an increase in the number of team orders issued or in how clear they appear to the fans/other teams.


I think the vast majority of fans want fair racing for all drivers. What incentive has Feilipe Massa got now? And how much fun is it for a Massa fan? Thing is felippe is so nice he doesnt make a fuss and gets walked over and its not fair.
#215387
Which is all well and good, but that is basically akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face - F1 would most likely be far more one sided and uncompetitive with one car teams, and i think we all know it. This whole situation is due to a rule that was always unenforcable, and only created, ironically, for/to appease fans in the first place.


How could it be one sided if there wasnt a team mate to treat dirty?
Theyd focus all their attention on one driver and it could be a team sport. And so the fans should be appeased, they're the bread and butter. No fans, no tv, no sponsors, no money, no F1.


It'd be one sided in terms of competition across the grid, only a handful (if that) of teams would have the resources and ability to create winning cars, and thus we would most likely never see situations like this season where we have 5 title challengers. The sport would ultimately wither and die.

I think you took my appeasement comment the wrong way. I am merely pointing out that we can't all have it our own way all the time, it is a completely impossible thing to happen.

As for Massa, he has the incentive of raising his game to ensure this situation cannot arise again, something which i think he is undertaking quite well as his form relative to Alonso has definitely improved.
#215390
Which is all well and good, but that is basically akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face - F1 would most likely be far more one sided and uncompetitive with one car teams, and i think we all know it. This whole situation is due to a rule that was always unenforcable, and only created, ironically, for/to appease fans in the first place.


How could it be one sided if there wasnt a team mate to treat dirty?
Theyd focus all their attention on one driver and it could be a team sport. And so the fans should be appeased, they're the bread and butter. No fans, no tv, no sponsors, no money, no F1.


It'd be one sided in terms of competition across the grid, only a handful (if that) of teams would have the resources and ability to create winning cars, and thus we would most likely never see situations like this season where we have 5 title challengers. The sport would ultimately wither and die.

I think you took my appeasement comment the wrong way. I am merely pointing out that we can't all have it our own way all the time, it is a completely impossible thing to happen.


We would have three challengers this year if it was one car per team. Thats better than the Schumacher years when his team mate couldnt race him.
I know it cant all be how we would like it and I dont know what the answer is but there must be something better than the current situation. I hate unfairness. There must be a solution.
#215393
I personally doubt it'd even be 3, most seasons anyway (this is a one off season in that respect, in recent times it's only really been two teams - Brawn/Red Bull, Ferrari/McLaren, Renault/Ferrari, Renault/McLaren etc etc). Having championships where the title is more or less guaranteed to only go to one of two or possibly three drivers is, for me, a massive step backwards, to the days where one car would be so dominant that it was a given that one of them would get the title before the season even started. At least now 4 or more drivers start each season with a realistic chance of glory. I guess this is really a discussion for another time and place though.

Like you i don't like unfairness but sadly there seems to be no real solution that would have a knock on effect elsewhere and cause other problems. Certainly i am yet to hear one. Perhaps simply banning radio contact is a possible way to prevent orders being given, but again that would have implications elsewhere, and is still not totally immune to team orders.
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