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[vaptin]

Why should it be enforced in the first place? The teams can tell their own drivers what to do (unless it affects the rights of others), the problem with lack of interest doesn't seem to be team orders, don't what people normally state as their most exciting times and races in f1 also be ones in which team orders were used?

Team's exist primarily to compete in the championships, and the fans are people who like watching that. IMO that's how the balance of power works out, yes the FIA need to try and make sure the battles are interesting, maybe team orders are needed so teams can fight for the championship effectively (in some circumstances) thats the 01 rule (still hoping someone would tell me why that rule was scrapped).

But talk of reforming the rule, must be started from a blank slate. Punish Ferrari harshly, and they'll simply demand a backlog effecting past championships etc (I'm pretty sure Ferrari were prepared to get that legally enforced), all are equal under the law.

The current FIA did the best thing possible here - give us that blank slate.

[Peng]

Honestly, i dont think people hate Hamilton, i think they just dont understand how his fans can so blatantly make statements which they have no statistics or ability to back their great idol with.

And fans of Ferrari, Alonso, Vettel etc etc etc don't?

I have seen more unjustified hate for Mclaren and Hamilton in general on this forum than for anyone else.
I dislike Alonso because i think hes a stuck up little idiot but at the same time i know hes an amazing driver who could quite easily compete with Hamilton for the best driver currently on the grid, i don't think i have seen any of the Hamilton Basher's ever admit Hamilton is a great driver.

[vaptin]

Honestly, i dont think people hate Hamilton, i think they just dont understand how his fans can so blatantly make statements which they have no statistics or ability to back their great idol with.

And fans of Ferrari, Alonso, Vettel etc etc etc don't?

I have seen more unjustified hate for Mclaren and Hamilton in general on this forum than for anyone else.
I dislike Alonso because i think hes a stuck up little idiot but at the same time i know hes an amazing driver who could quite easily compete with Hamilton for the best driver currently on the grid, i don't think i have seen any of the Hamilton Basher's ever admit Hamilton is a great driver.

There do some to be more of the Hamilton fanboys around though (not talking everyone who likes Hamilton, just the blind ones who also like to bash anyone thats not Hamilton). The Ferrari ones on here aren't really any better.

Never spotted a Vettel one on here though.

[Peng]

Honestly, i dont think people hate Hamilton, i think they just dont understand how his fans can so blatantly make statements which they have no statistics or ability to back their great idol with.

And fans of Ferrari, Alonso, Vettel etc etc etc don't?

I have seen more unjustified hate for Mclaren and Hamilton in general on this forum than for anyone else.
I dislike Alonso because i think hes a stuck up little idiot but at the same time i know hes an amazing driver who could quite easily compete with Hamilton for the best driver currently on the grid, i don't think i have seen any of the Hamilton Basher's ever admit Hamilton is a great driver.

There do some to be more of the Hamilton fanboys around though (not talking everyone who likes Hamilton, just the blind ones who also like to bash anyone thats not Hamilton). The Ferrari ones on here aren't really any better.

Never spotted a Vettel one on here though.

There probably are but most of them don't openly bash other drivers like i seem to see quite a lot of especially from what seem to be Ferrari fans.

And i have seen plenty of Vettel fans or atleast people claiming facts about Vettel that cant even be proven, some of the first threads i ever saw when i joined this forum were about how Vettel is the best driver on the grid and yet a few months later i doubt many people would claim that anymore now that they have seen how much he crashes out.

Saying that though Monza was probably 1 of Vettel's best drives especially considering he was the 1 who made the tactical choice to stay out and not RBR this time.

But anyway going slightly off topic :p i just wanted to point out that its not just Hamilton fans that can post total BS and claim its correct.

[Martin]

Hi again F1 folks. Long time no speak for me, but its nice to see so many of the old names still going.
Those of you who remember me will know that I am no Ferrari fan, but, well done to them at Monza, a well deserved win. However, the drivers and the constructors points for Ferrari are incorrect in my view. Alonso did not win the points in Germany, he was given them. Ferrari management cheated and they have been found guilty, but not penalised, this cannot be right. Alonso, and the team, have points that they did not win. We know how ineffective the FIA is, especially when it comes to Ferrari, but the given reasons are not acceptable I think. (that other teams have cheated and not been punished)
F1 has one very serious flaw in my opinion. It is an inward looking, self serving sport. Michael Schumacher summed this up perfectly when he said that team orders should be given, just not done so obviously, and that they (the teams) are there for one purpose only - to win the championship. WRONG! they are there to entertain us - the fans, they have no other purpose - no fans = no sponsors, no sponsors = no F1. The sponsors only hand over cash in order to get their image over to us - the fans. Most fans are interested in F1 because of the racing. Being ordered to move over to let your team mate by is not racing, it is cynical manipulation of the rules. Ferrari are a disgrace and always have been. As the oldest team they should lead by a clean example.
We fans are grossly underestimated by F1, whenever they talk about the sport they talk only of themselves. Lets become a pain in the neck to the FIA and the teams - lets tell them that we want the sport run our way, not by some backroom mangers decisions made for the benefit of the team and not the fans. I support pure racing, not manipulated games. Lets contact the teams and the FIA and demand our terms. It is said that there is no point in having a 'no team orders' rule because it cannot be enforced. Absolute rubbish, on that basis there is no point in having many of our criminal laws, because it is not easy to enforce them. A copy of each driver contract should lodged with the FIA. Any team members who knows about team orders but does not report it to the FIA should be personally liable to prosecution - even years later. If individuals are liable then management cannot enforce team orders. M

Some excellent points! Great to see you back Hope you hang around.

Hi Racechick, Its good to be back. In answer to your question re: Alonso's image, I dont think that his image has suffered much - those who supported him probably still do and those who dont probably still dont. Although F.A. probably was on the radio whinging and bitching as he is wont to do, the decision was a management one, so it is Ferrari management that has suffered most from the fans, but, they are used to that and, with the FIA on their side why would they worry? we are only the fans. M

[nish2280]

Honestly, i dont think people hate Hamilton, i think they just dont understand how his fans can so blatantly make statements which they have no statistics or ability to back their great idol with.

I now will ask a question.
Do you think Alonso has damaged his image with the fans as a result of Ferrari's actions and the ensuing hearing?

The answer is no, as well. Alonso's image suffered as much as he did when he passed Massa into the pits
The image has suffered because of a GREAT deal of propaganda. The same sort of propaganda teams like Red Bull and/or Mclaren DO NOT get when they do similar:

Exhibit A - The Heikki pass.... no fuss at all. Not even a question raised. Nobody cared, nobody complained.
Exhibit B - Turkey. The only one to complain was Lewis.
Exhibit C - Monza for Red Bull. so, that could have been some sort of tricky play by the Red Bulls. Maybe. Who cares? will anybody start a campaign aganist them and damage their image? i seriously doubt it.

Wow, you better not be saying that there are team orders in McLaren. I know the facts and logic show that there are but really are wrong whenever you mention anything against McLaren. Remeber that.

[spankyham]

In reading this I have to wonder is this pure Ferrari-hatred or is there a skerrick of truth here?

...the drivers and the constructors points for Ferrari are incorrect in my view. Alonso did not win the points in Germany, he was given them. Ferrari management cheated and they have been found guilty ............. Alonso, and the team, have points that they did not win.

The WMSC, in their decision found Team Orders at Germany 2010 - Ferrari, Turkey 2010 - McLaren, and Germany 2008 McLaren.
If you truly believe your own post, then you be the one to write and confirm that Felipe is now the true WDC for 2008 (the actual passages from the WMSC decision have been quoted verbatim in another thread)

Lets become a pain in the neck to the FIA and the teams - lets tell them that we want the sport run our way, not by some backroom mangers decisions made for the benefit of the team and not the fans.

I hope you and the other spectator enjoy watching F1 with no teams with any budgets. I'll be over watching whatever competition FOTA starts with the other billion viewers.

It is said that there is no point in having a 'no team orders' rule because it cannot be enforced. Absolute rubbish, on that basis there is no point in having many of our criminal laws, because it is not easy to enforce them. A copy of each driver contract should lodged with the FIA. Any team members who knows about team orders but does not report it to the FIA should be personally liable to prosecution - even years later. If individuals are liable then management cannot enforce team orders. M

Again a simple test for you, simply state that, in line with the WMSC Decision, and your statement above you want Lewis and Jenson prosecuted first.

[bud]

The fact McLaren were brought into the discussion by Ferrari and the WMSC is rather weak. Both cases mentioned were in no way the same as what Ferrari did to Felipe. They had more to do with varying strategies rather than making one driver give way his chance at a race win.

[Jensonb]

The fact McLaren were brought into the discussion by Ferrari and the WMSC is rather weak. Both cases mentioned were in no way the same as what Ferrari did to Felipe. They had more to do with varying strategies rather than making one driver give way his chance at a race win.

Indeed. I can't comprehend why so many people are failing to recognise the difference between holding station (Fo whatever reason) and letting someone through to win.

[spankyham]

The fact McLaren were brought into the discussion by Ferrari and the WMSC is rather weak. Both cases mentioned were in no way the same as what Ferrari did to Felipe. They had more to do with varying strategies rather than making one driver give way his chance at a race win.

Indeed. I can't comprehend why so many people are failing to recognise the difference between holding station (Fo whatever reason) and letting someone through to win.

With Jenson and Lewis in the spotlight suddenly the rules aren't so important? It's even a Ferrari bad for pointing the fact out? And probably a Ferrari bad for getting the WMSC to decide they were right?

The rule says "interfere" with the race result. Stopping someone who could pass from passing is interfering.
If it was bookie that got a different team's driver to "hold station" do you think that wouldn't be questioned.

Also, someone else here has gone to so much trouble to point out and explain with 3 separate videos, Jenson did pass, and was then told in an absolutely desperate voice "fuel is critical .... fuel is c-r-i-t-i-c-a-l", then he basically stopped in the corner, let Lewis through and didn't challenge again instead of closing the door like any driver who was really competing for the spot would have done.

[f1ea]

The fact McLaren were brought into the discussion by Ferrari and the WMSC is rather weak. Both cases mentioned were in no way the same as what Ferrari did to Felipe. They had more to do with varying strategies rather than making one driver give way his chance at a race win.

Indeed. I can't comprehend why so many people are failing to recognise the difference between holding station (Fo whatever reason) and letting someone through to win.

Because "holding station" when your teammate is on fuel save mode and you aren't, takes away the possibility that you can sincerely overtake him. It is therefore, an order (or an instruction) that has an affect on the final outcome of the race.

I'm not saying it is "the same" as what Ferrari did. I'm just saying, to the eyes of the rule, they are the same.

The fact McLaren were brought into the discussion by Ferrari and the WMSC is rather weak. Both cases mentioned were in no way the same as what Ferrari did to Felipe. They had more to do with varying strategies rather than making one driver give way his chance at a race win.

In this case, it is exactly the same. Felipe, just like Jenson, simply had A CHANCE at the race win. And this chance was modified because of the team order, strategy, instruction. Again, not EXACTLY the sae, but to eyes of the rule: the same.

[bud]

Spanky I do hope you realise that every team tell their drivers to save fuel at stages during races this season? The same race you talk of, Webber was given the same order in which made it possible for Vettel to get close for his Kamikaze move!
End of the day the no team order rule was brought in to stop a team swapping positions like what we saw Rubens and Schumi do a couple of times. Did McLaren do that? No. Did Ferrari do it again with Alonso and Massa? yes.

End of.

[bud]

In this case, it is exactly the same. Felipe, just like Jenson, simply had A CHANCE at the race win. And this chance was modified because of the team order, strategy, instruction. Again, not EXACTLY the sae, but to eyes of the rule: the same.

No if Jenson did not conserve fuel he would have DNF'd for running out of fuel

[Hammer278]

The fact McLaren were brought into the discussion by Ferrari and the WMSC is rather weak. Both cases mentioned were in no way the same as what Ferrari did to Felipe. They had more to do with varying strategies rather than making one driver give way his chance at a race win.

Indeed. I can't comprehend why so many people are failing to recognise the difference between holding station (Fo whatever reason) and letting someone through to win.

With Jenson and Lewis in the spotlight suddenly the rules aren't so important? It's even a Ferrari bad for pointing the fact out? And probably a Ferrari bad for getting the WMSC to decide they were right?

The rule says "interfere" with the race result. Stopping someone who could pass from passing is interfering.
If it was bookie that got a different team's driver to "hold station" do you think that wouldn't be questioned.

Also, someone else here has gone to so much trouble to point out and explain with 3 separate videos, Jenson did pass, and was then told in an absolutely desperate voice "fuel is critical .... [b]fuel is c-r-i-t-i-c-a-l", then he basically stopped in the corner, let Lewis through[/b] and didn't challenge again instead of closing the door like any driver who was really competing for the spot would have done.

Completely innacurate. Lewis got back position and THEN, the order came through, and yes Jenson did what he does best - hold station.

[f1ea]

In this case, it is exactly the same. Felipe, just like Jenson, simply had A CHANCE at the race win. And this chance was modified because of the team order, strategy, instruction. Again, not EXACTLY the sae, but to eyes of the rule: the same.

No if Jenson did not conserve fuel he would have DNF'd for running out of fuel

How do you know? is there any proof of this at all? What if he had ran 1 more lap a full or 3 more turns (enough to o/t)... then the rest at fuel save? would it have been enough to finish ahead without running out of fuel? i think it would have been entirely possible. They simply avoided a POTENTIAL DNF, b eit a crash or running out of fuel.

Fact is, nobody knows... because nobody asked... because nobody cares.

In any case: we was robbed!!

If the proof against Ferrari was Massa pouting, then look no further than Lewis pouting after Turkey. But you all 'decided' he pouted because he was gifted the win and he doesnt like that... what a monumental pile of BS!