FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[AKR]

The 'clown' running the FIA is the same clown that was running Ferrari and ordered that infamous and unecessary switch with Michael and Rubens causing this rule to be written.

No he did the right thing when he was at Ferrari. And the clown running F1 back then and made this stupid rule change back then was not Todt. However if Todt decides to somehow punish Ferrari for not actually doing anything (and I am sorry I do not consider the use of team orders wrong, but rather the stupid rule in F1 regarding team orders as irrelevant and incorrect) then Jean Todt himself might as well be promoted to the president of the World Clown Association.

[myownalias]

I watched the last FIA GT1 race at Nurburgring last weekend. My dad commented (as he watched the race with me). The 2 Vitaphone Racing Maseratis just swapped spots. On team orders of course. The current championship leader and reigning champions Bertolini/Bartels was behind their team mate at the start of the race and very much at the start the switch was done. Very vital since they had a bad race and the swap ensured them 6th spot and more points then the guy in second who came 11th. Now no one gives a shiit about tream orders here. Formula 1 has become a farse with team orders not allowed. Exactly what my dad said. All other motor sports allow it. Ferrari have done no wrong. If they have then Formula 1 has become a joke and might as well be the laughing stock of all motorsports rather than the pinacle. But then again you have a bunch of clowns running F1 these days so you cannot expect any better really.

The big problem here is inconsistency; one team will be punished for handing down team orders while another team will get away with it; that is what is making F1 a joke not the rule itself, the rule is pretty clear "team orders that effect the outcome of the race are prohibited" - If it is not going to be enforced, get rid of the rule. But from a fan's perspective it denies the people that pay hundreds of [insert currency here] to see the races and the millions that regularly watch at home the spectacle of two team mates going wheel to wheel for position. The only time team orders should be allowed is when one driver is out of the title race, Having team orders when both drivers are reasonably close in points is unfair to the #2 driver and makes many people turn away from F1 especially when you have one or two teams dominating proceedings. The problem with the rule is; teams can manipulate the race without saving a word over the radio; e.g. *botched* pit stops which delays the #2 driver by five seconds allowed his team mate to pass, is that not another form of team order? These team orders are a massive can or worms, it'll be better to step back to the pre-2002 rule which allowed team orders but only when there is good reason; e.g. one driver is well ahead of the other driver; which is fair in my opinion!

[vaptin]

Jean Todt is no clown, even those who dislike him will acknowledge his clear capability. Unfortunately he diddn't manage to get the silly reactionary team order rule rewritten in time to avoid this whole mess.

[AKR]

Jean Todt is no clown, even those who dislike him will acknowledge his clear capability. Unfortunately he diddn't manage to get the silly reactionary team order rule rewritten in time to avoid this whole mess.

Well then he will have to hand Ferrari a "Suspened Ban" and the re-write the rule, ie get rid of it, so when Ferrari then decide to do it again, well then the "Suspended ban" will no longer have any meaning and thus will be able to be ignored. There is always a way around all problems.

[What's Burning?]

So after this trial, the no team order rule is removed. We go forward and in Abu Dhabi miraculously Massa is leading the WDC, and Alonso is behind him in 2nd. During the race, Massa once again is leading with a handful of laps to go, and Alonso once again "overtakes" Massa in the same way because a phone call was made, but now team orders are not illegal. So Alonso gets his number 3 WDC and Ferrari get their WCC.

Ferrari being Ferrari did the right thing for their Sponsors and for themselves... but what does that do to the sport, the fans and at what point does a team order constitute something illegal? Was it illegal to have a team order Nelson Piquet Jr. to crash? Where is the line? How about a team order to have a back marker number two driver take out the number one driver of your rival team?

I'm using a drastic example however the whole point here is that there's no way to keep things from slowly getting out of hand and get the fans disgusted, which is what led to the ridiculously nebulous and difficult to enforce no team order rule in the first place.

I don't mind it if the rule stays or if the rule goes, as long as there is consistency and the fans know where they stand. There has to be a lot more crystallized rules and consequences whether the rule stays or goes for teams in order to not find the sport back again in the same spot in a few years.

[vaptin]

So after this trial, the no team order rule is removed. We go forward and in Abu Dhabi miraculously Massa is leading the WDC, and Alonso is behind him in 2nd. During the race, Massa once again is leading with a handful of laps to go, and Alonso once again "overtakes" Massa in the same way because a phone call was made, but now team orders are not illegal. So Alonso gets his number 3 WDC and Ferrari get their WCC.

Ferrari being Ferrari did the right thing for their Sponsors and for themselves... but what does that do to the sport, the fans and at what point does a team order constitute something illegal? Was it illegal to have a team order Nelson Piquet Jr. to crash? Where is the line? How about a team order to have a back marker number two driver take out the number one driver of your rival team?

I'm using a drastic example however the whole point here is that there's no way to keep things from slowly getting out of hand and get the fans disgusted, which is what led to the ridiculously nebulous and difficult to enforce no team order rule in the first place.

I don't mind it if the rule stays or if the rule goes, as long as there is consistency and the fans know where they stand. There has to be a lot more crystallized rules and consequences whether the rule stays or goes for teams in order to not find the sport back again in the same spot in a few years.

The crashing stuff is neither here or there, its illegal to crash deliberately whether your team told you to or not, of course the team being involved will mean more guilty parties and quite clearly show "conspiracy and pre-meditation".

The 2001 rule, quite clearly accounts for your scenario, "a team order which the team cannot justify for the championship (or something like that), Ferrari wouldn't be able to justify telling Massa to move over there as he'd be winning the championship. I'll hold back all my criticisms of your situation though as I assume its purely hypothetical to discuss the sporting and competitive implications of team orders.

We've covered the two extremes now, one is Schumacher - Rubens in 01, the other is Massa - Kimi(07?), Alonso and Massa is in-between the two, its ambiguous in terms of its justification, does anyone believe team orders will always be wrong (even if one diver is mathematically out of the WDC) yet this rule does not make any such distinction.

[Jensonb]

You guys are crazy. Repeal the team orders ban, are you kidding me? Do you have any idea what kind of message that sends? Do you really think that the whinging of some team bosses and a couple of pundits, and the inexplicable opposition to a rule designed to prevent (What is essentially) race fixing on the part of some of the more dedicated fans is proof positive that the rule is in any way mis-guided?

Welcome to the real world. Repealing the team orders rule is just going to get the sport a load of negative press along the lines of "F1 Governing Body declares open season on race-fixing!" in the tabloid press, and that in turn will start turning joe public off. And to what end? What possible harm have you identified this rule as doing? It's only been invoked once, and that is for this case, where it was clearly breached. Not a single person so far has in any way justified overturning the ban outside of going "oh well it's silly...It's a team sport like football" (Which it isn't) or saying "oh but it's always gone on" - which in no way justifies it.

You can spout about inconsistency in saying "oh but McLaren in Turkey" all you like, the two cases clearly have almost nothing in common other than radios and teammates. There is nothing to be gained in repealing the tam orders ban, and plenty to lose.

[What's Burning?]

It is a hypothetical if I didn't make that clear enough, but just for discussion but how is this different?

The 2001 rule, quite clearly accounts for your scenario, "a team order which the team cannot justify for the championship (or something like that), Ferrari wouldn't be able to justify telling Massa to move over

There's a rule that is supposed to clearly account for the scenario and yet half the people on this forum are arguing that it was vague and unenforceable and that it's been skirted or bend a dozen times in the past and they didn't see anything really wrong with it in the first place.

This issue is much bigger than Ferrari and much bigger than Alonso being given the place of Massa by his team, it's a clear fundamental break, it is the different between racing for a win and manipulating for a win. Thankfully the egregiousness of this infraction doesn't pop up that often but the FIA has to put the fans first by making CLEAR and enforceable rules. Like I said, I have no preference for one way or the other, as long as I know who/what I'm rooting for and so I know how invested I can be to a driver or a team or the sport.

[racechick]

Yes its a team sport....but the constructors championship is secondary to the drivers. I bet all manufacturers would prefer to win the drivers...drivers is the biggy. So manipulating or cheating to gain one driver an unfair advantage is against this sport. If they/you truely want it to be a team sport then let the drivers share the car (like le mans). Each driver has to spend (20-30%) of the time in the car. No longer any need for team order nonsense.

[vaptin]

Yes its a team sport....but the constructors championship is secondary to the drivers. I bet all manufacturers would prefer to win the drivers...drivers is the biggy. So manipulating or cheating to gain one driver an unfair advantage is against this sport. If they/you truely want it to be a team sport then let the drivers share the car (like le mans). Each driver has to spend (20-30%) of the time in the car. No longer any need for team order nonsense.

Jensonb - it isn't race fixing, did you see Bernie tear up (Jake or Eddie?) when they tried to question him on it in Germany. It's the teams right to tell their own drivers what to do to try and maximise their chances of securing both championships (its up to the teams themselves to judge on if its the best option or not), all team orders is, is blatantly obvious. But its the same idea as a driver who gets pole, drives off and wins the race, the team want to maximise their chances.

It is a hypothetical if I didn't make that clear enough, but just for discussion but how is this different?

Lets bring football up again, teams don't play their best 11 all the time, sometimes they rest players, in smaller tournaments they even use their reserve teams to focus on the bigger fish. The smaller benefit of getting a win, doesn't always

The 2001 rule, quite clearly accounts for your scenario, "a team order which the team cannot justify for the championship (or something like that), Ferrari wouldn't be able to justify telling Massa to move over

There's a rule that is supposed to clearly account for the scenario and yet half the people on this forum are arguing that it was vague and unenforceable and that it's been skirted or bend a dozen times in the past and they didn't see anything really wrong with it in the first place.

This issue is much bigger than Ferrari and much bigger than Alonso being given the place of Massa by his team, it's a clear fundamental break, it is the different between racing for a win and manipulating for a win. Thankfully the egregiousness of this infraction doesn't pop up that often but the FIA has to put the fans first by making CLEAR and enforceable rules. Like I said, I have no preference for one way or the other, as long as I know who/what I'm rooting for and so I know how invested I can be to a driver or a team or the sport.

Which rule are you talking about there? the 01 one, or the current version? Team orders may not be the best for on track visual excitement, I grant you, and yes the FIA has to decide whether it prioritises the excitement for the fans or the rights of the teams to order their drivers which is why I prefer the 01 version to the current one. It tries to take the two into account, its ok as long as there's enough to justify it being needed for the championship.

All Ferrari did to cause the outrage was make the manipulation blatant, unintentionally (from those who issued the order). But like I said, from a pure idelogical moral perspective, the teams have a right to manipulate their own drivers

[smokin]

All Ferrari did to cause the outrage was make the manipulation blatant, unintentionally (from those who issued the order). But like I said, from a pure idelogical moral perspective, the teams have a right to manipulate their own drivers

Purity, ideology and morality do not figure in FIA rules.

[AKR]

At the end of the day F1 is a business. It is that simple. The fans are secondary and basically running the business is and will always be first. This applies to all sports. We can all argue here for the next 10 years but it will not change this reality. Think of it like this, if the business all of a sudden goes bad, it wont matter what the F1 fans think because there will be no F1. And I am affraid I am going to have to say what all Ferrari haters don't want to hear, that is Ferrari is an essential part of the running and success of the F1 as a business. Ferrari brings in most of the fans and sponsors and other business in F1. So you know what, the FIA cannot do anything to Ferrari if they want to keep the F1 business nice healthy. Literally ban Ferrari for even a race and you watch participation in the subsequent GP be reduced. And that cannot be good for business and F1 as a whole. So take it as you want, but this is the way it is now and the way it will always be.

[smokin]

At the end of the day F1 is a business. It is that simple. The fans are secondary and basically running the business is and will always be first. This applies to all sports. We can all argue here for the next 10 years but it will not change this reality. Think of it like this, if the business all of a sudden goes bad, it wont matter what the F1 fans think because there will be no F1. And I am affraid I am going to have to say what all Ferrari haters don't want to hear, that is Ferrari is an essential part of the running and success of the F1 as a business. Ferrari brings in most of the fans and sponsors and other business in F1. So you know what, the FIA cannot do anything to Ferrari if they want to keep the F1 business nice healthy. Literally ban Ferrari for even a race and you watch participation in the subsequent GP be reduced. And that cannot be good for business and F1 as a whole. So take it as you want, but this is the way it is now and the way it will always be.

I broadly agree with what you say but I must disagree with your statement about the fans. Yes, F1 is a business but a business relies upon its customers, those who pay their salary. The sponsors are F1's customers and the fans are the sponsors' customers. Disaffect your customers and your business suffers. The FIA must tread very carefully here, not only to avoid losing Ferrari but also to avoid turning off fans in droves.

[Hammer278]

At the end of the day F1 is a business. It is that simple. The fans are secondary and basically running the business is and will always be first. This applies to all sports. We can all argue here for the next 10 years but it will not change this reality. Think of it like this, if the business all of a sudden goes bad, it wont matter what the F1 fans think because there will be no F1. And I am affraid I am going to have to say what all Ferrari haters don't want to hear, that is Ferrari is an essential part of the running and success of the F1 as a business. Ferrari brings in most of the fans and sponsors and other business in F1. So you know what, the FIA cannot do anything to Ferrari if they want to keep the F1 business nice healthy. Literally ban Ferrari for even a race and you watch participation in the subsequent GP be reduced. And that cannot be good for business and F1 as a whole. So take it as you want, but this is the way it is now and the way it will always be.

Fortunately, there is a majority of fans (objective Ferrari fans) who realise and have voiced out that Ferrari did wrong and deserve punishment. So, even if there are a few fans who are blind to the teams' wrongdoing the FIA can still act based on what's best in the perspective of majority.

Banning Ferrari for a race or stripping them off their points in Hockenheim, would simply be justice served and a stern reminder to other teams not to play around like Ferrari did. I hope for the FIA to assert themselves and hand down the necessary penalty. Especially after how Ferrari showed their arrogance after actually 'challenging' them by saying they'd take legal action if the FIA hand down a penalty which affects Ferraris WDC campaign.

[myownalias]

So basically what you are saying AKR is that FERRARI IS BIGGER THAN FORMULA 1? because that is sure what it sounds like to me! If Ferrari left Formula 1 for whatever reason, sure there would be a period of time where sponsorship and support for Formula 1 will drop but the sport will recover; there are enough big names remaining to sustain the future of Formula 1! Ferrari might act like they are bigger than the sport but I can assure you that they are not, Formula 1 will continue whatever Ferrari do; Ferrari needs Formula 1 as much as Formula 1 needs Ferrari, otherwise they would have been off to pastures new at least twice in the history of the sport!