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[nish2280]

But wouldnt very harsh penalties be better than no penalty at all? i say this because if the Ferrari get a huge punch in the face then wont all the teams be afraid to do it?

[f1ea]

Actually, I unequivocally support the Team Orders rule and I always have. Don't usurp the royal "we".

I am not judging you individually (so dont get me wrong here), but are you one of the ones that turn the blind eye when certain "situations" or "conditions" make them acceptable? if so, then you dont support the rule. You support whatever fits your needs.

(For example when some guy says, I have Vettel because he gets extra support from Red Bull, now I hope Red Bull turn their support to Webber because I like him).

The media plays the "its what the fans want to see". Well, that's a royal "we" that simply isnt true. Many people dont mind, many fans turn a blind eye when it suits their liking, many fans know it happens and knw theres nothing to do about it, manhy other sports do it and they have their fans.... and then, many fans condemn it. So... from the whole we-universe there, the ones that actually unequivocally support the rule is not the whole as the press wants to make out to be.

Then comes the issue about the "spectacle". Well, if the rule is there for the spectacle, believe me, having Ferrari played their cards to keep Fernando in contention have made the remaining races at least moderatley interesting for a goup of fans. Maybe in equal ammounts to the ones that say the move was evil.

In any case, the kind of blatant manipulation displayed by Ferrari is not okay. If a driver is out of contention for the WDC, it's their choice whether or not to help the teammate, but the gentlemanly thing to do would be to do so. The rule is not so much about the act of yielding itself as it is about the cynical act of ordering the leader to step aside over the radio.

So basically, you dislike the way Massa/Smedley played the situation. That has nothing to do with the rule itself. Even worse, now that Massa has played this episode, lets see how many more times Ferrari renews his contract. And lets see who picks him up with his price tag. For all the times fans have asked for his head, Ferrari never did, and even though this yr he had been terrible they renewed his contract long before the cynical episode in an open act of trust and gentelmanship..... if you think what he did puts his career at embarrassment, i am sure Ferrari having not renewed his contract would have been even worse, and truth is, they didnt need to. They had/have LOTS of drivers arguably better (and decisively better according to many fans) to fill his seat.

But yeah... the collective "we" fans slam Massa when they want to embarrass him for his wet driving "rubbish-ness" for his "only wins when from pole" stuff... and the list goes on. Now, all of a sudden, according to this group, Massa is fit to challenge the current WDC contenders...

Hypocrisy at its finest.

im not saying this is you, only saying what does happen within the collective "we"

[bud]

hopefully they do the right thing and DSQ the race results for Ferrari as they did with Lewis in Australia 2009.

[f1ea]

hopefully they do the right thing and DSQ the race results for Ferrari as they did with Lewis in Australia 2009.

It doesnt matter what penalty they give. But it has to be in accordance to what other penalties have been for "team orders"... which, have been none to little........................

[bud]

hopefully they do the right thing and DSQ the race results for Ferrari as they did with Lewis in Australia 2009.

It doesnt matter what penalty they give. But it has to be in accordance to what other penalties have been for "team orders"... which, have been none to little........................

how can they put it in accordance to other penalties on team orders when no one has been punished for team orders since its inception?
Though they can bring it up for bringing the sport into disrepute which is what Lewis and McLaren did in Australia 09 and Lewis was quite fairly DSQ for that race. Which is what should happen to Ferrari!

[f1ea]

hopefully they do the right thing and DSQ the race results for Ferrari as they did with Lewis in Australia 2009.

It doesnt matter what penalty they give. But it has to be in accordance to what other penalties have been for "team orders"... which, have been none to little........................

how can they put it in accordance to other penalties on team orders when no one has been punished for team orders since its inception?
Though they can bring it up for bringing the sport into disrepute which is what Lewis and McLaren did in Australia 09 and Lewis was quite fairly DSQ for that race. Which is what should happen to Ferrari!

So, are you saying it hasn't happened?

[bud]

hopefully they do the right thing and DSQ the race results for Ferrari as they did with Lewis in Australia 2009.

It doesnt matter what penalty they give. But it has to be in accordance to what other penalties have been for "team orders"... which, have been none to little........................

how can they put it in accordance to other penalties on team orders when no one has been punished for team orders since its inception?
Though they can bring it up for bringing the sport into disrepute which is what Lewis and McLaren did in Australia 09 and Lewis was quite fairly DSQ for that race. Which is what should happen to Ferrari!

So, are you saying it hasn't happened?

what im saying is what i wrote in my previous post, its not transparent its right there!

[f1ea]

what im saying is what i wrote in my previous post, its not transparent its right there!

Well, you're saying no penalty has been handed out to team orders... but that doesnt mean it hasnt happened.
So, the same could be said about not penalising team orders.

Maybe they will remove all WCC points. Maybe they will do only a fine... maybe they will DQ both drivers... it doesnt matter much. Because whatever the penalty it will be only cosmetic (ie to punish the WAY the action took place, not the team order itself) and to appease the so called fans that want to see a penalty being dished out at Ferrari. Nothing more.

[bud]

thats not what we are debating, Ferrari are the first team to be punished for altering a race win since this inception of the rules. So thats all that needs to be brought up.


here is the amended table if Ferrari are DSQ from the German GP.

01 Lewis Hamilton 188
02 Mark Webber 183
03 Sebastian Vettel 161
04 Jenson Button 152
05 Fernando Alonso 116
06 Robert Kubica 108
07 Nico Rosberg 106
08 Felipe Massa 91

[The Immortal Dragon]

why would they strip the Ferrari drivers of their points?
If they really want to strip off some points, Ferrari would lose the WCC ones. It's a team issue, not a driver one.

[Ichabod]

I wish people would stop comparing F1 to other team sports

Basketball fans never complain when the best player gets the ball for the last minute shot.THERE IS NO RULE SAYING THEY CAN'T!! They dont care that the best player gets the ball most of the time. Whenever a player is struggling, the ball goes to someone else. As simple as that.

in Football your not allowed to handle the ball, but if they do and get sent off for breaking the rules, nobody moans that you can in Rugby
Ferrari pushed there luck and were found guilty by the stewards End of story

It's up to the FIA to punish them accordingly
both drivers should be disqualified

[Jensonb]

why would they strip the Ferrari drivers of their points?

Because the drivers can easily be seen to be accountable for this too, particularly Massa. The drivers losing their points would be down to the cars being disqualified, which is a perfectly reasonable punishment for the charge of bringing the sport into disrepute.

[The Immortal Dragon]

I personally think it's more the team's fault than the drivers' fault.
the team decided to bring the sport into disrepute rather than the Alonso and Massa; the latter only did what he had to do as a team member who doesn't want to lose his seat.
That's how I see it, anyway.

[Flux]

what im saying is what i wrote in my previous post, its not transparent its right there!

Well, you're saying no penalty has been handed out to team orders... but that doesnt mean it hasnt happened.
So, the same could be said about not penalising team orders.

Maybe they will remove all WCC points. Maybe they will do only a fine... maybe they will DQ both drivers... it doesnt matter much. Because whatever the penalty it will be only cosmetic (ie to punish the WAY the action took place, not the team order itself) and to appease the so called fans that want to see a penalty being dished out at Ferrari. Nothing more.

to be honest it probs will be for the cosmetic way it took place, but don't forget thanks to the cosmetic way it took place it is being punished as " team orders " in the first place. ( sorry if that sentence doesn't make sense)

but it can also be seen from the point of view other supposed team orders that have happened since the rules inception have clear arguments ie: is it team orders / is it not team orders. whereas Ferrari in Germany didn't disguise it, lied, insulted f1 fans and was frankly very arrogant in their approach.

and on a final note, the argument that other teams have used team orders and not been penalised for it and therefore the precedent is set, wont hold up. you simply cannot say at a murder trial, Mr. xxxxxx murdered his wife in 2005 and got away with it so my client who also murdered his wife in 2009 should be treated in the same fashion, rules do not work that way.

[billindenver]

I fail to see how anyone can prove that team orders were given. The team is allowed to tell a driver that he is holding up a team mate. That driver is allowed to yield in a gentlemanly manner. The team is allowed to thank him over the radio for doing so. That driver is allowed to be upset over being slower than his team mate...again...

Now....PROVE that the above is not what happened. If you can't prove otherwise....how can penalties be given? I would not be surprised to see the stewards decision reversed. There simply was no order given that can be proven to be such.