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[f1ea]

And then there was 1 dominating the poll.....

For Lewis to be the greatest ever... will take more than just the british media's opinion. And the british fans'.
Do a poll about nationalities in this forum. Wanna bet which will DOMINATE and which media they read?

Youngest WDC to date
Only Rookie to defeat a 2X WDC in F1 history

Won't even argue either point. BUT
Does this give him more potential above the others to be the greatest? is he even the best driver today?
Neither of the above pts ^^ have the answer.

Consistently winning the biggest trophy in every series in his 2nd year

Same as above.

Denial is not only a river in Egypt, but his fans are loving every minute he's driving the car on the ragged edge....

Lots of drivers have fans loving their driver driving his car... to better results... WITHOUT being on the ragged edge.

Lewis Hamilton has potential but will he live upto that potential? nobody knows that's the answer, I believe he has the ability to become the greatest of his generation but not the greatest of all time, F1 today is too different from the time of Senna, but arguably the best drivers of all time are those who drove at the limit in cars where if you crashed, you are almost certain to have career ending injuries or be killed. In relative terms, drivers these days have it easy, nothing like the racers of the 50s/60s!

Comparing Hamilton to Senna and Senna to Fangio is like comparing an Apple to a Brick and a Brick to a Plant!

Its ok to have fun with the question... WHO's THE BEST EVER?? ?? ?? who's going to be the best ever?? ??
Fun question... no answer.

[Big Azza]

But what would be nice is if he could actually race his team mate instead of asking them to move aside, and prove how good he is against them.

Because he'd know he'd lose out. He tried it at least twice against Hamilton in '07. And Hamilton beat him in the championship that year!

Oh.. I know.. what about.. the move on Massa in China??
and.. selfish?? seriously??
so if Senna overtook Prost at McLaren just before a pit-stop, you would really say that *Senna* was *selfish* because the team was ready for Prost? Oh, come on.. I wouldn't believe that even for a second.

Hamilton and Alonso were tied at 109 points in 2007, and considering that Alonso had all his team against him for half a season.. it wasn't that bad. (It doesn't matter if it was right or wrong that he had all the McLaren team against him, it wouldn't change how things went)
And watch Alonso's overtaking move on Schumacher
Seriously, overtaking Schumacher is worth more than overtaking a team mate.

Nope, I would call Senna selfish as much as I'm willing to label him as arrogant.

However, I might come across slightly two-faced when I say that it was Webber's fault that Sebastien collided with him.

Regarding the video- Youtube is blocked at my work.

But I can't wait to watch it, hopefully I get my new HTC today and I can watch it then. (I've been using a Nokia 3530 since my 5800 broke. )

[The Immortal Dragon]

But what would be nice is if he could actually race his team mate instead of asking them to move aside, and prove how good he is against them.

Because he'd know he'd lose out. He tried it at least twice against Hamilton in '07. And Hamilton beat him in the championship that year!

Oh.. I know.. what about.. the move on Massa in China??
and.. selfish?? seriously??
so if Senna overtook Prost at McLaren just before a pit-stop, you would really say that *Senna* was *selfish* because the team was ready for Prost? Oh, come on.. I wouldn't believe that even for a second.

Hamilton and Alonso were tied at 109 points in 2007, and considering that Alonso had all his team against him for half a season.. it wasn't that bad. (It doesn't matter if it was right or wrong that he had all the McLaren team against him, it wouldn't change how things went)
And watch Alonso's overtaking move on Schumacher
Seriously, overtaking Schumacher is worth more than overtaking a team mate.

Nope, I would call Senna selfish as much as I'm willing to label him as arrogant.

However, I might come across slightly two-faced when I say that it was Webber's fault that Sebastien collided with him.

Regarding the video- Youtube is blocked at my work.

But I can't wait to watch it, hopefully I get my new HTC today and I can watch it then. (I've been using a Nokia 3530 since my 5800 broke. )

Yeah, that's the point. Senna hadn't been selfish, because overtaking a team-mate just before a pit-stop or in any similar situation isn't selfish because the driver didn't think about the team.
The drivers want to win, always. If they have a chance to pass somebody - even and *especially* their team-mates - they will do it in any situation that might arise.

To be honest, I think the fault for the RBR crash is about 50:50 between the two drivers, although the team could and *had* to avoid that situation. So I personally believe it's the team's fault above all. But let's not get back into that again.

About the video.. watch it when you can, it was a great overtaking move by Alonso on Schumacher.
I've always been a fan of Schumacher's and it was terribly painful to see that overtaking manoeuvre back in 2006. Alonso made other nice overtaking manoeuvres, but I guess people just don't remember them!

[Robert12010]

At the end of the day, SENNA is the top dog!! and i certainly dont think he was arrogant from what ive read in the books and heard on tv, he just fighted for what he truly believed in!! , whether you like him or not!, then you have other greats like Prost, Piquet, Mansell, Stewart, Lauda, Fangio, Scuhey, and then todays guys Lewis, Sebb, Mark, Jenson, Fernando

[Hammer278]

And then there was 1 dominating the poll.....

For Lewis to be the greatest ever... will take more than just the british media's opinion. And the british fans'.
Do a poll about nationalities in this forum. Wanna bet which will DOMINATE and which media they read?

Then maybe we should just disregard the poll and not have anymore polls due to the forums population. Let's get rid of the system.

Youngest WDC to date
Only Rookie to defeat a 2X WDC in F1 history

Won't even argue either point. BUT
Does this give him more potential above the others to be the greatest? is he even the best driver today?
Neither of the above pts ^^ have the answer.

It gives a strong case to say he's probably the best on the grid right now. So far, he's maxed out the car in all races (to it's potential) without a single error, and has the most overtakes this season out of anyone by FAR. No one else can say the same.

As for best ever, I couldn't give a damn about the drivers not in F1 anymore. This comparison is useless, I only care who's the best IN F1 at this time.

Consistently winning the biggest trophy in every series in his 2nd year

Same as above.

Denial is not only a river in Egypt, but his fans are loving every minute he's driving the car on the ragged edge....

Lots of drivers have fans loving their driver driving his car... to better results... WITHOUT being on the ragged edge.

Really? So which race this season do you think someone other than Lewis had a car on par with him but drove it better to a better result? Jenson? Let's not take rain hit gambling races into account, as strategy plays a part. I'm talking pure pace/racing skills - what F1 drivers are judged by. Strategy makes it a team game, and our argument is best driver, not best team.

Lewis Hamilton has potential but will he live upto that potential? nobody knows that's the answer, I believe he has the ability to become the greatest of his generation but not the greatest of all time, F1 today is too different from the time of Senna, but arguably the best drivers of all time are those who drove at the limit in cars where if you crashed, you are almost certain to have career ending injuries or be killed. In relative terms, drivers these days have it easy, nothing like the racers of the 50s/60s!



Comparing Hamilton to Senna and Senna to Fangio is like comparing an Apple to a Brick and a Brick to a Plant!

Agree

Its ok to have fun with the question... WHO's THE BEST EVER?? ?? ?? who's going to be the best ever?? ??
Fun question... no answer.

I don't find it fun, just pointless because there can never be an answer.

[nish2280]

Sometimes i dont think many of you understand how bloody competitive these guys are. THEY WANT TO WIN. THEY WILL DO ANYTHING TO DO IT.

In Suzuka Senna took out his opponent first corner because that was the only way he could take him out of the title race, so he did it! And you say Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton act childishly.

The RedBull crash at Turkey was just pure racing. Vettel had gotten ahead and thought he had cleared Webber, moved to his right and what do you know? WEBBER WAS STILL THERE! How anyone can possibly blame this on one driver is completely absurd.

Alonso overtaking Massa to get in the pits first? RACING, seriously why would anyone think "hey i could overtake this guy right here, but i think i wont because its my team mate and that is morally wrong according to people on the internet so ill just stick behind him". If you dont want to see teammates being competitive then maybe you shouldnt watch the sport. Or any sport in that case.

As for best driver? Any driver who has the race pace and the quali pace.

[The Immortal Dragon]

It gives a strong case to say he's probably the best on the grid right now. So far, he's maxed out the car in all races (to it's potential) without a single error, and has the most overtakes this season out of anyone by FAR. No one else can say the same.

Having done the greatest number of overtakes this season is not necessarly a positive thing.
He has found himself quite behind in a couple of races, when I'm sure you would have preferred seeing him in the lead, instead.
At the end of the day, if you overtake much it means more than once you were behind cars slower than you, which isn't great.

Really? So which race this season do you think someone other than Lewis had a car on par with him but drove it better to a better result? Jenson? Let's not take rain hit gambling races into account, as strategy plays a part. I'm talking pure pace/racing skills - what F1 drivers are judged by. Strategy makes it a team game, and our argument is best driver, not best team.

No, the strategy is still a driving quality.
In China and in Australia, Button decided the strategy for himself and won both races. Hamilton made the mistake to trust his team like many other drivers.
Good for Jenson, but strategy is skill for drivers, too.

[Hammer278]

The reason he was behind other slower cars were due to reasons out of his control. (Weather/etc) Did you watch the races where he started far back? He wasn't the only one from the top 3 btw.

What Jenson did in those races were good gambles, and they paid off. But that only gets you so far. As you can see from the poll, those amazing Las Vegas moments by Jenson early this season still sees him on a zero count. Everyone knows the guy is not on the same level as both Lewis/Fernando.

[The Immortal Dragon]

Button hasn't taken gambles in China and Australia, he simply trusted his own instinct. It is completely different!

And I haven't said that it was only Hamilton who didn't get the strategy spot on, I just stated that just because he made the greatest number of overtakes doesn't necessarily mean that he's the best driver. He probably is, but that statistic doesn't necessarily tell so.

Also, the weather is *not* something out of the driver's control as the strategy can be decided by the driver himself ( = Button)






I am sure you didn't bother looking who I voted, so I tell you I voted Hamilton. It may help.

[f1ea]

Then maybe we should just disregard the poll and not have anymore polls due to the forums population. Let's get rid of the system.

Not really. Just take them (forumula1's polls) for what they are: subjective opinions of a kinda specific goup of individuals...

It gives a strong case to say he's probably the best on the grid right now. So far, he's maxed out the car in all races (to it's potential) without a single error, and has the most overtakes this season out of anyone by FAR. No one else can say the same.

As for best ever, I couldn't give a damn about the drivers not in F1 anymore. This comparison is useless, I only care who's the best IN F1 at this time.

ahem... without a single error? are you sure? are you sure?
Extracting the best of the car at all times? are you sure as well?

Most overtakes this season by far... does not mean anybody is the best ever. if so, Vettel would be the best ever since he overtook a whole bunch of people in monaco. What were the conditions? what were the conditions of Lewis' overtakes? not that they were poor... just that it doesnt make a measure of who is the best driver in the grid.

So, if you only care for who's best in F1 at THIS TIME... i think you have to look better. or maybe support your claims with real information. Not take only the things you think make the best driver right now....

Really? So which race this season do you think someone other than Lewis had a car on par with him but drove it better to a better result? Jenson? Let's not take rain hit gambling races into account, as strategy plays a part. I'm talking pure pace/racing skills - what F1 drivers are judged by. Strategy makes it a team game, and our argument is best driver, not best team.

I am not the one making the claim of who is the best driver in F1. I am saying I am sure others find better drivers based on their driving better than whoever you may pick. Because you will pay attention and give importance to some things that others probably consider, but also conider something else.

Many drivers have outdone their cars... on different occasions and for different reasons. In fact, at some of those times, the car in question was actually the one with the best conditions to be faster than it ussualy is........

So, Lewis has had very good races, normal races, and mediocre races. Pretty much like everyone. So, he's good. But not the best.

Who is the best? still have to wait a few more races, right now they are all about tied... very close. If he finishes with the best results in the end of this season (even regardless of whether he won the WDC or not) he may be the best driver in the season. But right now, still some guys are very close and doing as good if not better.

[Ayrton-Lewis]

Lewis Hamilton has potential but will he live upto that potential? nobody knows that's the answer, I believe he has the ability to become the greatest of his generation but not the greatest of all time, F1 today is too different from the time of Senna, but arguably the best drivers of all time are those who drove at the limit in cars where if you crashed, you are almost certain to have career ending injuries or be killed. In relative terms, drivers these days have it easy, nothing like the racers of the 50s/60s!

Comparing Hamilton to Senna and Senna to Fangio is like comparing an Apple to a Brick and a Brick to a Plant!

By this logic Fangio/Clark>>Senna/Prost..Because Clark was in much more difficult Era than my favorite driver Senna...
I don't agree by this logic..Every era is different..But talent is always talent..In my eyes Senna is the GOAT(Greatest of all time) but someone else can say that Fangio is the GOAT or someone else that Schumacher is the GOAT..Forget about the Eras.
Senna is the greatest because he was the fastest of his era and perhaps the fastest ever(with Clark 2nd ever imo) and with not always the best car.He was also the rain-master..Remember 1993 Donington Park(my favorite race ever)...Do you remember that mister Prost ?
But Hamilton is the heir of Senna...Look at his driving skills,his determination,he is the OverTake Master.Also he was great at rain.Monza 2008..And he isn't even at his prime...Senna is the Greatest ever but personally I give a small chance to Lewis to be the Greatest because he is damn good...By far the fastest driver today..With the same car he'll destroy anyone!
And Lewis reminds me Senna..Even Ayrton's sister said that...for a British ...

[Hammer278]

Button hasn't taken gambles in China and Australia, he simply trusted his own instinct. It is completely different!

And I haven't said that it was only Hamilton who didn't get the strategy spot on, I just stated that just because he made the greatest number of overtakes doesn't necessarily mean that he's the best driver. He probably is, but that statistic doesn't necessarily tell so.

Also, the weather is *not* something out of the driver's control as the strategy can be decided by the driver himself ( = Button)

I am sure you didn't bother looking who I voted, so I tell you I voted Hamilton. It may help.

I don't mean the driver with the most number of overtakes as the best. It just proves he's one of the best racers out there. He has made many overtaking moves without contact or causing accidents unlike many other drivers this season.

It doesn't matter who you voted, but what gets me is that some people belittle Lewis' performances this season and justify it with lame reasons (not yourself)

I'm a fan of his, I think he drove amazing in his rookie year, and the year he actually won the WDC he did make a few stupid errors and had the help of a not-so-great driver being his main challenger. This year however, I think he's outclassed his previous 2 years by far. So far. When the McLaren has the potential to win the race (weather not playing a part), he's done it (and also in Turkey when he was a big factor causing the Redbull brain fade)

[darwin dali]

By far the fastest driver today..With the same car he'll destroy anyone!

LH: 157 pts.
JB: 147 pts.
Destroy? Really?

[Hammer278]

Not really. Just take them (forumula1's polls) for what they are: subjective opinions of a kinda specific goup of individuals...

Yeah...and what vast majority thinks does matter. No matter what 'specific' group they are, Hamilton isn't the only British driver on the grid now is he. If he was, your quote will be more relevant.

ahem... without a single error? are you sure? are you sure?
Extracting the best of the car at all times? are you sure as well?

Most overtakes this season by far... does not mean anybody is the best ever. if so, Vettel would be the best ever since he overtook a whole bunch of people in monaco. What were the conditions? what were the conditions of Lewis' overtakes? not that they were poor... just that it doesnt make a measure of who is the best driver in the grid.

Yes Yes I'm sure....are you asking it multiple times because you're struggling to recall a mistake? I don't blame you.

So, if you only care for who's best in F1 at THIS TIME... i think you have to look better. or maybe support your claims with real information. Not take only the things you think make the best driver right now....

I have my opinions of what makes the driver the best right now. Beating a multiple WDC in his rookie year, winning the WDC in the next, never being beaten by a teammate, zero mistakes this season so far, most overtakes, taking wins when he shouldn't have, being 4 points behind the WDC leader with a car that is a second slower per lap, after having 2 reliability issues robbing him of potential 33 points, sorry mate, too many odds in my favor of the argument...

I am not the one making the claim of who is the best driver in F1. I am saying I am sure others find better drivers based on their driving better than whoever you may pick. Because you will pay attention and give importance to some things that others probably consider, but also conider something else

Many drivers have outdone their cars... on different occasions and for different reasons. In fact, at some of those times, the car in question was actually the one with the best conditions to be faster than it ussualy is........

So, Lewis has had very good races, normal races, and mediocre races. Pretty much like everyone. So, he's good. But not the best..

Okay, so your conclusion is no one can be judged to be the best? Then whats the point of this entire thread and why are you posting in it?

Who is the best? still have to wait a few more races, right now they are all about tied... very close. If he finishes with the best results in the end of this season (even regardless of whether he won the WDC or not) he may be the best driver in the season. But right now, still some guys are very close and doing as good if not better.

Errr..so now you're saying the person who wins the WDC is the best this year. Okay, if this is how you judge, why don't we delete threads like this as they are just a waste of space...

[Hammer278]

By far the fastest driver today..With the same car he'll destroy anyone!

LH: 157 pts.
JB: 147 pts.
Destroy? Really?

With the 'same' car let's take into account reliability issues are the same as well. Taking Lewis' positions in the Spanish/Hungary races assuming he finished them, you'll find the scoreboard leaning more towards 'Destroy'....I assure you.

This is all 'ifs' of course, so it doesn't matter. But what matters is Lewis beats Jenson and no one has any doubts he will. As long as the car doesn't buckle under him too many times from now.