FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[The Immortal Dragon]

my issue is when team orders are issued when the driver ordered to move over can still mathematically win.

Well, that's Ferrari business though, isn't it?

(Although it's quite unlikely Massa might win the WDC with so many drivers in front of him)

[myownalias]

I'm not sure its still an offence if the driver made the decision?

I don't believe it is; but it's tantamount to the same thing... rules need to be clear and concise, as should the punishment, if the team and/or drivers manipulate the race result, both drivers should be excluded from the race and lose any points they would have earned, simple punishment for a simple crime.

The FIA rulebook has enough loopholes to knit myself a new sweater!!!

[vaptin]

I'm not sure its still an offence if the driver made the decision?

I don't believe it is; but it's tantamount to the same thing... rules need to be clear and concise, as should the punishment, if the team and/or drivers manipulate the race result, both drivers should be excluded from the race and lose any points they would have earned, simple punishment for a simple crime.

The FIA rulebook has enough loopholes to knit myself a new sweater!!!

I agree that if you object to the team telling the drivers, the drivers doing it themselves should also be worthy of offence, its not though currently and there lies one of Ferrari's get out options.

Tbh, I like the old rule (pre Schumacher 2001) which was something like "if the team cannot justify the order in terms of the championship". It's almost the same as what your saying with one driver being mathematically out,

[myownalias]

my issue is when team orders are issued when the driver ordered to move over can still mathematically win.

Well, that's Ferrari business though, isn't it?

It is Ferrari's internal business but it's against the rules and spirit of racing... so they should be punished and not with a insignificant $100,000 fine.

Tbh, I like the old rule (pre Schumacher 2001) which was something like "if the team cannot justify the order in terms of the championship". It's almost the same as what your saying with one driver being mathematically out,

I didn't know about that rule; wasn't so much into the workings of F1 at that point, but yes that is exactly what I mean and I believe that is fair!!!

[stonemonkey]

I'm not sure its still an offence if the driver made the decision?

If it's the drivers decision to follow such a coded order then giving Massa a grid penalty and maybe losing points from that race or something would make any driver think before doing the same in the future and possibly give each drivers side of the team a little more say in that situation.

[The Immortal Dragon]

I'm not sure its still an offence if the driver made the decision?

If it's the drivers decision to follow such a coded order then giving Massa a grid penalty or something would make any driver think about doing the same in the future and possibly give each drivers side of the team a little more say in that situation.

They would still do it.
The drivers do what is best for the team. If the team tells them to switch positions, they will.

But on the other hand it would make the teams think, because if they use a team order in a race they know one of their drivers will start behind in the next GP grid and will therefore get less points during that GP.
It might work.

[vaptin]

Won't work at all, the teams will just come up with a cleverer way to code it. Banning Alcohol diddn't work, cos it was so damn popular people did it anyway, but banning drugs works better - if you follow my gist.

I think we should just go back to the old rule, at least it stops teams brushing even reasonable orders under the carpet, and Ferrari's one can be subject about to a proper debate without the hypocrisy from other teams about the blatant disrespect etc. "interfering with the outcome" is a minefield, Ferrari might just say we were telling Massa Alonso was faster than you, which means he was going to get by at some-point so all we wanted to do was ensure it was kept clean. They haven't interfered with the race result in that case.

[myownalias]

Something needs to be done to dissuade teams from using such tactics, teams do it because thusfar no punishment has been forthcoming to teams that have employed team orders, the longer this continues, the more the FIA will become a joke, I'll say it again, if the rule is not going to be enforced, scrap it!!!

The old rule does work much better, this new rule was a knee-jerk reaction to the events of Hungary 2002!

[f1ea]

Ferrari made it not so easy to turn a blind eye on this by doing 80 not 75.

You mean... Massa and Smedley?

So you see.. the problem is not what REALLY went on. The problem seems to be how ugly Massa and Smedley made it look like. What would be the punishment for that? Really, its no what happened where the problem is. Its how it looks. So, for the FIA to give an unprecedented punishment on a situation that happens everyday, based on "how ugly it looks"... holds no water.

Sure, the FIA can dish out an enormous punishment... a punishment like never before... and in the end the punishment will be: BECAUSE MASSA AND SMEDLEY MADE IT LOOK UGLY. because the very same thing happens and has happened all the time to no punishment.

Something needs to be done to dissuade teams from using such tactics, teams do it because thusfar no punishment has been forthcoming to teams that have employed team orders, the longer this continues, the more the FIA will become a joke, I'll say it again, if the rule is not going to be enforced, scrap it!!!

The old rule does work much better, this new rule was a knee-jerk reaction to the events of Hungary 2002!

[What's Burning?]

Ferrari made it not so easy to turn a blind eye on this by doing 80 not 75.

You mean... Massa and Smedley?

So you see.. the problem is not what REALLY went on. The problem seems to be how ugly Massa and Smedley made it look like. What would be the punishment for that? Really, its no what happened where the problem is. Its how it looks. So, for the FIA to give an unprecedented punishment on a situation that happens everyday, based on "how ugly it looks"... holds no water.

Sure, the FIA can dish out an enormous punishment... a punishment like never before... and in the end the punishment will be: BECAUSE MASSA AND SMEDLEY MADE IT LOOK UGLY. because the very same thing happens and has happened all the time to no punishment.

I don't dispute that, but like AKG pointed out in an Enzo Ferrari quote last month. If Ferrari wins it's the car that wins, if Ferrari loses it's the drivers that lose. So I understand the mentality and it's Ferrari's decision to make and any driver that drives for them has to understand that, it may even be in the the contract... but I doubt it.

In this case I think Massa and Smedley went all Thoreau on Ferrari's order with a dose of civil disobedience. Cat's out of the bag so let's wait and see what the ruling it. Can you imagine the discussion on this thread next month?

[The Immortal Dragon]

The old rule does work much better, this new rule was a knee-jerk reaction to the events of Hungary 2002!

Austria 2002


Anyway, I do agree.
There should be a rule and a standard penalty to be applied every time in the same way.

[myownalias]

The old rule does work much better, this new rule was a knee-jerk reaction to the events of Hungary 2002!

Austria 2002

That's what happens after you pass 30; the memory starts to fail

[The Immortal Dragon]

The old rule does work much better, this new rule was a knee-jerk reaction to the events of Hungary 2002!

Austria 2002

That's what happens after you pass 30; the memory starts to fail

Ehehe.
Don't scare me, though. I still have to get there!

[What's Burning?]

That's what happens after you pass 30; the memory starts to fail

Humans evolved that way, when you pass 40 other more important things start to fail, but since your memory is failing already, you don't remember it for long.

[f1ea]

That's what happens after you pass 30; the memory starts to fail

Humans evolved that way, when you pass 40 other more important things start to fail, but since your memory is failing already, you don't remember it for long.

Who cares what we forget... there's Viagra now!!