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[myownalias]

I think that everyone is agreed that Ferrari broke the rules, the question is whether the FIA will enforce those rules to their fullest extent, I believe it'll be a slapped wrist!!!

Bottom line here is either the FIA enforce the rules with some sort of points deduction or expulsion from the 2010 season, or trash the rule and allow team orders. I don't agree with team orders, never have and never will but if it's not going to be enforced then just drop the rule and stop with all the posturing and bullsh*t!

it has never been enforced - why all of a sudden now? Teammates have been swapping places all the time towards the end of the season since the team order ban was put in place and almost everybody was just fine with it. Should there be a ban on team orders only for the first half of the season or 3/4 or what? Well, then have the FIA spell it out

That's the problem isn't it? it's a rubber rule, no matter how much you bend it, it'll never break!!! IMO rules are rules and if broken, punishment should be swift!

[MAD MAX]

It was blatant team orders................which are banned, the punishment should be removal of all drivers and constructors points for that race, simple. Whilst I like Massa, he too is guilty, Mansell would have just told them to FRO

[The Immortal Dragon]

Seriously, what someone said about team 'strategy' and team 'orders' being separated, that theory will never fly. A team can always argue that everything was under the team 'strategy' column.

Ok, I'll try saying it clearer.

Team strategy: Whatever the team decides to do WITHIN it for the best interest of the team.
Team order: Two teams agree on race-fixing. McLaren and Williams were accused of it in 1997 when it was thought they had a pact to ensure Villeneuve beat Schumacher to the WDC. In exchange, the 2 McLarens would have been allowed to pass Villenueve to finish 1-2 as a reward.

[Jabberwocky]

because it was not so blatant

[scotty]

They'll probably just get a huge fine and slap on the wrist for being SO obvious about it. They can't really DQ them cause that sets a ridiculous precident for the future and ignores several past incidents, which is pretty damn out of order in itself. Not to mention that if you look at it from a purely technical angle, Ferrari cannot be proved of having done anything wrong, which is completely stupid but completely relevant in this situation. Unless Massa or Smedley break ranks...

[vaptin]

I'll try and keep the "moral" arguments of team orders being right or wrong etc, out of my post.

The FIA are in "trouble" here, all Ferrari are really going to get is a punishment for making it obvious rather than actually doing it, and that means the FIA can't punish them too severely.

Throw the book at Ferrari, and the team will make a mockery of the FIA, every time another borderline incident comes up, or was in use in the past they'll make it very public that that was a team order and must be punished.

The rule itself doesn't even take into consideration if one driver is mathematically out of the WDC, and his team mate isn't. It states (according to what Brundel has said) that its ok if the drivers decide for themselves, where do you draw that line between the team giving their drivers information and allowing the drivers to make the actually decision to a direct order. Is pressuring a driver an order?

[Jabberwocky]

Sporting Regulation 39.1
FIA F1 Sporting Regulations

39.1 Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.

So did Ferrari interfere with a race result?

The FIA will need to prove one of 2 things:-

What Smedley said was an order

or that

Alonso would not of overtaken Massa in the due course of the race

[What's Burning?]

Sporting Regulation 39.1
FIA F1 Sporting Regulations

39.1 Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.

So did Ferrari interfere with a race result?

The FIA will need to prove one of 2 things:-

What Smedley said was an order

or that

Alonso would not of overtaken Massa in the due course of the race

Neither of which they can definitively PROVE, yet the race stewards felt it was obvious enough to warrant the maximum financial fine they could impose on the team.

It's not about what Smedley said or how he said it... we ALL knew what it meant, it's also not about whether or not Alonso would have overtaken Massa because that's simply just a hypothetical argument since we know 100 different things could have gone on with that hypothetical pass, some of which could have ended badly for Ferrari, hence the order. But I don't know, as an F1 fan, I was deprived of seeing what those 100 different things could have been. I saw one outcome when Red Bull battled it out, and I saw another outcome when McLaren battled it out, I didn't get to see Ferrari's outcome, so that's why we have to see it in court.

In any case, it's all a simple matter of it being swept under the rug if Massa says during the trial that he knew Alonso was faster and that he was holding him back so HE made the decision to let Alonso through.

I would have much rather watch racing on the race track than in a court.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

1. In 2002, who was the Ferrari team principal who decided Barrichello should yield to MSC, which caused the uproar that led to the current "no team orders" rule?
A. Jean Todt

2. Who is the current president of the FIA?
A. Jean Todt


Todt has to crucify them to avoid the appearance of favoritism.

[smokin]

Its a team sport. The team will play their cards to the best of their sportive interests. Nodoby has done anything beyond comprehension. In ANY OTHER SPORT when a player is willing to overlook the team's interest and/or coach or authority guideline they get punished. Basketball fans never complain when the best player gets the ball for the last minute shot. They dont care that the best player gets the ball most of the time. Whenever a player is struggling, the ball goes to someone else. As simple as that.

It's a team sport AND an individual sport. Alonso and Massa swapping places brought no benefit to the team. Arguably, it hurt the team, giving Vettel more of a chance to grab second place if the slower driver stood in his way. The team orders were solely for Alonso's benefit and that's why fans are upset. Except for Alonso fans, of course.

[vaptin]

Its a team sport. The team will play their cards to the best of their sportive interests. Nodoby has done anything beyond comprehension. In ANY OTHER SPORT when a player is willing to overlook the team's interest and/or coach or authority guideline they get punished. Basketball fans never complain when the best player gets the ball for the last minute shot. They dont care that the best player gets the ball most of the time. Whenever a player is struggling, the ball goes to someone else. As simple as that.

It's a team sport AND an individual sport. Alonso and Massa swapping places brought no benefit to the team. Arguably, it hurt the team, giving Vettel more of a chance to grab second place if the slower driver stood in his way. The team orders were solely for Alonso's benefit and that's why fans are upset. Except for Alonso fans, of course.

It benefits the team to win the WDC. . .

[The Immortal Dragon]

sure, and F1 is made up of teams. So?

If things like this should be prohibited, then it's completely pointless there are teams in the sport, right?

[smokin]

sure, and F1 is made up of teams. So?

If things like this should be prohibited, then it's completely pointless there are teams in the sport, right?

There are certainly pointless teams.

But, returning to my earlier point, the rule exists and, whether the rule is good or bad, fans have a expectation that the rule will be enforced. Fans follow teams and individuals and results manipulated by rule infringements can turn people off the sport. Sponsors depend upon fans seeing their sponsored team in a good light and transferring that preference to them. Upset the fans and the sponsors withdraw their support. No sponsors, no sport.

The FIA have to be seen to be upholding the rules. How they do that in this case while maintaining some semblance of impartiality and avoiding the inevitable "But what about the incident with [insert team name here] at [insert race here]?" I have no idea. Like I said, the FIA are in a hole with no obvious way out.

[The Immortal Dragon]

All of what you said would be appliable IF the FIA itself believed in the rule, which they don't. It's obvious they think the rule is not that useful.
Even if they thought the rule was right, it's impossible to prove anyway guilty of breaking that rule, which is pathetic for a rule.
So I'll stand by what I said: they'll change the rule.

[myownalias]

Either enforce the rule; retroactively if necessary or scrap the rule... it just makes the FIA a laughing stock if they don't enforce the rule, token fines are not going to appease the fans that this rule was brought in to keep happy, fans are not stupid, they can see the FIA are doing nothing to punish blatant team orders, despite going through the motions. The FIA need clear rules, if you do this; you will be punished. In laws if you punch someone, it's assault, "I didn't hit him that hard" is not a valid defence.