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#213467
I would say that they want more downforce to be produced by emphasis on the underneath of the car rather than by working the air travelling over the top. This way there will be less of a wake(turbulent air) generated by each car and hence less of a performance drop off for following closely
#213468
I wonder if they're planning on using Turbo-Charged Straight-4s or V4s? Anybody know?

Also: Ground Effect. Blegh. If I see cars with skirts, I'm gonna be p***ed. Those cars were hideous.
#213471
I wonder if they're planning on using Turbo-Charged Straight-4s or V4s? Anybody know?

Also: Ground Effect. Blegh. If I see cars with skirts, I'm gonna be p***ed. Those cars were hideous.


won't be fan cars mate, ground effect dosn't have to be that extreme.
#213472
Ground effects is another way to create "downforce". There's an active thread on that in the last few days which will be pretty much the same theoretical answers.
#213475
I wonder if they're planning on using Turbo-Charged Straight-4s or V4s? Anybody know?

Also: Ground Effect. Blegh. If I see cars with skirts, I'm gonna be p***ed. Those cars were hideous.


won't be fan cars mate, ground effect dosn't have to be that extreme.

Fine, I'm just saying, if the cars are ugly I'm not gonna be happy about it. We only just got them looking pretty again after the fiasco that was the 2008-style
Ground effects is another way to create "downforce". There's an active thread on that in the last few days which will be pretty much the same theoretical answers.

What in tarnation are you talking about son? This is a thread about the impact of the proposed new rules and their re-introduction of ground effect, which incidentally is a fair bit more specific than the theory of downforce, since it is generated in wholly different ways to the downforce coming from, say, the rear wing - and the broader issue here is, what difference generating downforce through ground effect will make in terms of things like overtaking.
#213481
Jensonb do you purposely go out of your way to be arrogant and condescending to people on this forum?

My response wasn't even directed at you, at least let Ivey determine the value of my answer. He asked about how ground effects work, ground effects is a way to create additional downforce, so it would be a good idea to read that post... anyone that was here looking for information would find my answer useful or if not just ignore it.

You seem as if you like to hear yourself talk.
#213484
Jensonb do you purposely go out of your way to be arrogant and condescending to people on this forum?

My response wasn't even directed at you, at least let Ivey determine the value of my answer. He asked about how ground effects work, ground effects is a way to create additional downforce, so it would be a good idea to read that post... anyone that was here looking for information would find my answer useful or if not just ignore it.

You seem as if you like to hear yourself talk.

No, I'm just playing. If I was seriously trying to get at you, I would not start with something so ludicrous as "What in tarnation". I was just making the point that the question was not so much about the theories of downforce as it was the actual impact of moving to ground effect. I apologise if the way I said it upset you.
#213492
Jensonb do you purposely go out of your way to be arrogant and condescending to people on this forum?

My response wasn't even directed at you, at least let Ivey determine the value of my answer. He asked about how ground effects work, ground effects is a way to create additional downforce, so it would be a good idea to read that post... anyone that was here looking for information would find my answer useful or if not just ignore it.

You seem as if you like to hear yourself talk.

No, I'm just playing. If I was seriously trying to get at you, I would not start with something so ludicrous as "What in tarnation". I was just making the point that the question was not so much about the theories of downforce as it was the actual impact of moving to ground effect. I apologise if the way I said it upset you.


Thank you.
#213496
It sounds good but they produce 100 bhp less, however they may have more torque. The other thing is that if you are only allocated 5 engines per season so they'll have to keep the revs down lower than they are now.
#213507
Only 650bhp then. Hm.

Not sure about using ground effects, the cars will be ridiculously quick around corners, and if the effect were to fail that is just asking for a really, really big accident...
#213528
If you regard the current crop of cars as attractive, IMHO, you're overdue an eye exam. They are something of an improvement over the previous V-10 generation -- the ones with barge boards and all the teeny little wings -- but they still are so homely you couldn't coax a puppy to play with one, even bribing it with a slab of raw meat.

In the olden days, ground effects were created with a lexan skirt that extended from the tub all the way to the ground. It was free to move on ground contact so it somewhat sealed off the undercarriage, and pushed air aside as the car moved, optimizing the pressure differential under the car. It was cheap, effective and very reliable, and I reckon it still would work on the new high nose cars.

Ground effects downforce is less disturbed by drafting than wing-generated downforce, which could mean more passing. Except that with all the TilkeDromes, there's only one race line through most corners, which means that anything that increases mechanical grip will tend to reduce competition.

I wonder if anyone in the FIA have done a cost effectiveness study to determine the break-even point for engine life. They seem to believe that having a single engine last the entire season (hell, why not five seasons?) would be ideal but I doubt that's an effective use of a fixed budget.

There has to be a point at which development costs of building an engine that has the required lifespan is more than the materials and assembly costs for building a new engine for every race. Especially for those teams who lease engines, their engine builder has to defray all their development costs and their manufacturing expenses and still make a profit while selling a fewer number of engines. What was a 20-engine lease has become an 8-engine lease and apparently will be whittled down to a five engine lease. And the lesser economy of scale will have to be passed to the end user. It will cost substantially more to engineer a four race engine than it did a two race engine, as well as more to manufacture it, so the lease price likely will be more for the five engine lease than it is for the current eight-engine lease.

It certainly won't cost any less, and that doesn't include the expense of KERS. Some cost savings!

When you have forced induction, you don't need RPMs (as much). They're presently under 4700 fps piston speed in engines designed for 5200 fps but further cutting that back to something in the 4400 fps range would go a long way toward doubling engine life.

In 1988, boost on the 1.5 litre F1 motors was limited to 37 psi/2.5 bar and they still managed 675-690 hp. But those were one-race engines and the teams got away with doctoring the petrol much more than they do today. Still, 20 years on, 650 hp from 1.6 litres shouldn't be a challenge.

The current TR require that the engine weigh 95 kilos and the car 620 kilos. A four cylinder turbo lump easily could weigh a quarter less than a V-8 so they could reduce the engine limit to 70 kilos and the car to 595, which would recover some of the acceleration lost to the HP reduction (except that the teams have shown a preference to use the 15 extra kilos allotted for KERS as balance ballast instead of KERS). If they'd lift the ban on variable length intake runners and variable valve timing, they could create much more torque than the current V-8s, so the turbo cars could accelerate even faster. Of course adjustable intakes and valve timing is outside the purpose of cost containment but the FIA show no consistency on that account anyway.
#213913
Over on SPEED, perhaps the details have already been confirmed:

F1: Technical Changes On Tap For 2013
Future F1 cars will reportedly feature so-called 'ground effect' aerodynamics and be powered by 1.6 liter, four-cylinder turbocharged engines...

The outline of F1's new technical direction for 2013 and beyond has been essentially decided.

According to Autosprint's Italian-language auto.it, the sport's cars of the future will feature so-called 'ground effect' aerodynamics and be powered by 1.6 liter, four-cylinder turbocharged engines.

The report said the package has been agreed by the majority of the teams.

A working group, featuring a group of engineers from F1 teams, has been in charge of defining the basic outline of the 2013 regulations, Autosprint said.

The four-cylinder turbo engines will reportedly produce 650 horsepower, with drivers to be limited to using just five separate units per season.

Ground-effect aerodynamics, meanwhile, could improve overtaking by having the majority of the downforce generated underneath the car, rather than by the wings and top bodywork which greatly disturb the airflow onto following cars.

The technology was pioneered in F1 in the late '70s, but banned shortly afterwards because while producing immense cornering grip, ground effects made the cars unstable at high speed and relied on 'sliding skirts' that often broke.
#213923
Having said that, I'd love to see turbo cars back on the grid. Am I right in saying that they will produce power lower down the rev range and more torque than the current v8 engines?

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