FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[myownalias]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 307309.stm

One of the key figures charged with boosting overtaking in Formula 1 has said altering corners on tracks, rather than the cars, may be the way forward.

Rule changes for 2009 cars aimed at increasing the sport's most thrilling spectacle have been mostly ineffective.

But McLaren engineering director Paddy Lowe, part of the Overtaking Working Group, sees an alternative solution.

"Why shouldn't all corners have the features drivers can so easily pinpoint to improve opportunities?" he said.

One of three lead members of the OWG, first set up by motorsport's governing body the FIA in 2007, Lowe admitted that body work changes to 2009 cars have not had the effect that F1 so desires.

"It hasn't been a huge success, but it hasn't been a huge failure," he told BBC Sport on Wednesday.

With Lowe also of the firm belief that aerodynamic downforce, which enables cars to produce their top speeds, is likely to be reduced in the near future for safety reasons, he insists that further future car development cannot significantly improve overtaking.

"[It will] keep overtaking in a domain similar to where it is today," he added.

"The benefits will come principally in looking at circuits.

"We were talking about this the other day with Martin Whitmarsh [McLaren team boss]. As he said, if you go to circuit and ask a driver where he can overtake, he will say 'well, there is only one place where I might be able to do it and it's here'.

"All the drivers will agree on that same corner, there is no dispute on that point.

"So, if you follow the logic of that, really we should be looking at 'OK, why shouldn't all corners have the features that drivers can so easily pinpoint to improve opportunities at circuits as whole'."

The introduction of an energy-boost [Kers] button for this season has helped deliver some overtaking - but only simple manoeuvres over long straights and not around corners - while just Ferrari and McLaren now regularly use it after its uptake rapidly dropped away.

Adjustable wings were also introduced for 2009, but their impact on overtaking manoeuvres has been almost negligible.

[myownalias]

Personally I believe that the tracks are just fine on the whole; circuits that used to feature numerous overtaking manoeuvres now are just as processional as the new circuits. Drivers may say a certain corner is an overtaking opportunity but yet we rarely see much overtaking at any corner, I fail to see how track tweaks are the answer.

If the current aero packages are the way they are for safety reasons, then why do we bother racing? motor racing is a dangerous sport, now it seems it's a a sport where drivers are being mollycoddled by the health & safety brigade. It seems this years changes have been a backward step in safety given the amount of injuries to drivers compared to the '07/08 seasons. A move to mechanical grip instead of aero downforce may be the way forward as overtaking has become less and less common year after year!

[7UpJordan]

I think it's a combination of lots of things, but the two that stick out the most to me are Hermann Tilke's poor track designs which have been most of this year's dull races, and also the fact overtaking was fine at the start of the year but has been in decline since everybody started using the Double Decked Diffuser.

Two other things that I think also contribute are those dangerouse wheel rim covers - finally being banned for next year - and driver psychology, particularly as the FIA dish out penalties left right and center if an overtaking move goes wrong, especially Kubica and Vettel at Melbourne.

[myownalias]

...the fact overtaking was fine at the start of the year but has been in decline since everybody started using the Double Decked Diffuser.

Two other things that I think also contribute are those dangerouse wheel rim covers - finally being banned for next year - and driver psychology, particularly as the FIA dish out penalties left right and center if an overtaking move goes wrong, especially Kubica and Vettel at Melbourne.

To add to that I would also say the points system is an issue; only two points between first and second; a bigger points spread will give the drivers more incentive to attack!

[JamesD89]

...the fact overtaking was fine at the start of the year but has been in decline since everybody started using the Double Decked Diffuser.

Two other things that I think also contribute are those dangerouse wheel rim covers - finally being banned for next year - and driver psychology, particularly as the FIA dish out penalties left right and center if an overtaking move goes wrong, especially Kubica and Vettel at Melbourne.

To add to that I would also say the points system is an issue; only two points between first and second; a bigger points spread will give the drivers more incentive to attack!

[Rivelution]

Who cares about the overtaking, the FIA should open up the regs!! I say bring back the 04 aero regs, open up the engine freeze to V10 V12 and turbo engines, and use slick tires. Thats one badass Formula that would be really exciting. Bring back innovation!!!

[7UpJordan]

Who cares about the overtaking, the FIA should open up the regs!! I say bring back the 04 aero regs, open up the engine freeze to V10 V12 and turbo engines, and use slick tires. Thats one badass Formula that would be really exciting. Bring back innovation!!!

Widen the cars too, more mechanical grip in corners.

[Rivelution]

Who cares about the overtaking, the FIA should open up the regs!! I say bring back the 04 aero regs, open up the engine freeze to V10 V12 and turbo engines, and use slick tires. Thats one badass Formula that would be really exciting. Bring back innovation!!!

Widen the cars too, more mechanical grip in corners.

That would be nice too. I dont think the problem is with the tracks, its the FIA making F1 closer and closer to a spec series thats ruining the fun and excitement. Look at how much freedom the teams have with the regulations at Le Mans, yet the racing is fun as hell to watch.

[lcplcombat]

A track modification they could make would be to add slots for the cars to run in. That would also reduce the number of collisions in corners unless you press the trigger too hard and the back end steps out in front of another car.....

[EwanM]

F1 isn't all about overtaking. Although it's a little bit dry at the moment, the modern era has never really had alot of it.

It all ended with the removal of the rubber

Edit: Also the older tracks appear to maintain a decent level of overtaking. It's those Tilke-nightmares causing the problems... so predictable.

Long straights, tight first corners, squiggly bits... straight edges lol.

[headless]

F1 isn't all about overtaking.

It helps though

[cap-dude]

Who cares about the overtaking, the FIA should open up the regs!! I say bring back the 04 aero regs, open up the engine freeze to V10 V12 and turbo engines, and use slick tires. Thats one badass Formula that would be really exciting. Bring back innovation!!!

Back when there were bigger engines, higher top speeds meant longer braking distances. More overtaking.

I think all this talk about making tracks to suit F1 cars is utter crap. The simple fact is, even at tracks like Monza and Spa, we still don't see overtaking done mid-stint. All overtaking is done in the first 2 or 3 laps, then we see none aside from pit stops. The aero is still causing havok with the cars. It isn't any better, in fact, I'd 2007 the cars were easier to overtake.

[myownalias]

F1 isn't all about overtaking.

From a fan point of view, the millions that tune in on television, the thousands that pay extortionate prices for tickets! Strategy is interesting but when it's all about strategy it becomes like a game of snooker; great for the people that like to analyse each shot, it's not in any way exciting or interesting to watch for the masses! You can even argue that team followers find strategy exciting when their team and/or drivers are winning but from a neutral point of view F1 is dull viewing!

Back when there were bigger engines, higher top speeds meant longer braking distances. More overtaking.

Were speeds any higher back in the day of V10/12? They generated more horsepower but I don't believe the top speed was any higher; except maybe at the old Hockenheimring with the series of long straights which has now become defunct anyway. My point is that even the classic tracks have changed so much that the previously achievable top speeds wouldn't be achievable on modern circuit layouts even with a big V12 in the back! Shorter braking distances have become possible because of better brake technology not because the top speed has been reduced, maybe a standard braking system would improve overtaking, effectively enforcing bigger braking distances encouraging overtaking; also banning rear diffusers would help with the disrupted air off the back of the car, altering tracks is definitely not the answer!

[EwanM]

F1 isn't all about overtaking.

From a fan point of view, the millions that tune in on television, the thousands that pay extortionate prices for tickets! Strategy is interesting but when it's all about strategy it becomes like a game of snooker; great for the people that like to analyse each shot, it's not in any way exciting or interesting to watch for the masses! You can even argue that team followers find strategy exciting when their team and/or drivers are winning but from a neutral point of view F1 is dull viewing!

I understand what you are meaning and I agree that for the majority of casual viewers Formula One doesn't offer the "racing" that it should. However that just proves the failure of the Overtaking Working Group. What I find worse is reading about the tweaks to next year's regs, supposibly the cars will find it even more difficult to follow each other due to the narrower fronts.

As Gary Anderson said in Autosport a fortnight ago, the regs should have done more with the front and rear wings, they didn't need to look like that or take that dimension to solve the overtaking problem.

I still find Formula One interesting. Infact sometimes the race is but merely a sidestory in the soap opera lol.

[cap-dude]

Yep, the attempts to reduce aero by the teams were quite frankly, half-arsed. In my opinion they should do what Ross Brawn said, just place extreme restrictions on aero and send things back to the way it was during the early 00's. Stop faffing around and just do things right.

I mean, things like wheel covers and engine cover fins should've been instantly banned. Plus the double decker diffusers should go along with them.