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[jackarse]

Now I am a British Hamilton supporter BUT that does not make me biased. The FIA and Spa's stewards have recieved alot of stick since that infamous decision but my personal view on the matter is that it is McLarens desire to constantly push rules to the limit which earn them its penalties.

From what I've seen Ferrari concentrate purely on racing whereas McLaren seem to be creating rubbish and talking to much trash in the media. There is much more controversy surrounding McLaren and thats because they try to get away with foul play far too often.

Prahaps if Hamilton learnt a little bit of gracefulness stewards will be kinder to him in future. His constant gloating doesn't help decisions go his way.

I dont want to debate whether the decision was correct. What I want to debate is whether McLaren are partly to blame for the penalties they recieve.

[onelapdown]

Which parallel universe have you popped in from then? No offence but

[stonemonkey]

That's a much more polite reply than I could've come up with.

[McLaren Fan]

How can McLaren be to blame for this penalty? The team followed the letter of the law: Hamilton allowed Raikkonen past, thus giving up his advantage - which he gained by Raikkonen forcing him off the track. Race control said what McLaren did was legal. So, in this case, it seems to me that McLaren did everything they could to keep things above board.

In terms of other penalties the team got this year, some were and were not fair. Hamilton was rightly punished for crashing into the back of Raikkonen in Canada and Kovalainen was deservedly punished at the weekend for his botched "attempt" to overtake Webber. I'm not so sure about the two penalties McLaren got in France. Kovalainen was not blocking the driver behind him at all. He did everything he could to get out of the way for the guy coming behind, save going onto the gravel. Hamilton's move on Vettel (if I remember rightly) looked good to me as well. Then, at Hockenheim, Kovalainen's car was refueled with a jerrycan with the engine running, so the fine the team received was fair enough.

In any case, the vast majority of these things were caused by the drivers, so you can't blame the team as a whole. For the most part, the penalties dished out have been pretty dubious, so McLaren - and I'm not saying the team are angels - do have a right to feel hard done by.

[McLaren Fan]

Which parallel universe have you popped in from then? No offence but

That's a much more polite reply than I could've come up with.

The guy is clearly a s*** stirrer, but he's not the first person I've heard say this, so I thought I may as well provide my own opinion on the matter.

[stonemonkey]

Hamilton's move on Vettel (if I remember rightly) looked good to me as well.

Even as a LH fan I have to disagree and say I think he should've given the place back, for whatever good that would've done him.

[onelapdown]

Sorry, I should be kinder to a first-time poster, but really, I see you may have a point in part, but in general it's just so far away from how I see things I have a difficulty forming a serious response.

For one thing stewards and officials should be impartial judges of fact, so any idea that their decisions are influenced by how they are treated by team employees would imply a serious lack of professional integrity on their part.

I do understand that since McLaren have been on the wrong end of several decisions going way back as far as 1989, each of which called into question at least the proportionality if not the outright bias of the governing structures of the sport, they do at times seem to get a siege mentality into themselves as an organisation. That doesn't help.

At the same time, I do think the British and the Continentals have a fundamentally different ethical outlook when it comes to pressing their case, which Machiavellian politics coming much more naturally to the boys at Marranello and the Place de la Concorde, while brits tend to simply state the facts of their case and expect their arguement to speak for itself. That's just a clash of cultures and I'm not saying one is better than the other.

But to take one example, looking at the McLaren-Ferrari spy scandal and the one between McLaren and Renault. OK, the cases were slightly different, but not $100,000,000 and a constructors' championship different. It's that blatant inconsistency which, rightly in my view, drives McLaren absolutely bonkers.

And I really don't think anyone at McLaren has talked any trash to the media about Sunday's incident. They have simply stated their position as they see it.

As for Hamilton's gloating, I've said before and I say again there is nothing wrong in a successful person being pleased with himself. He should be. It's his reward for having worked hard and achieved something.

And finally as for pushing rules to the limit, this is a competitive sport where the result sometimes depends on fractions of a second and all teams really ought to be pushing the envelope as far as it will go. As Liverpool manager Bill Shankly once said "If a player isn't interfering with play or seeking to gain an advantage, he well should be"

[bud]

yeah i guess by standing up to the man

[McLaren Fan]

yeah i guess by standing up to the man

That's definitely a part of it. Think back to 1997 when McLaren, Williams and Tyrell refused to resign the Concorde Agreement. All three teams received some very strange penalties... I also think that onelapdown makes a good point about clashes of cultures. People from the British Isles tend to be a bit more reserved. Mediterranean peoples tend to get a little more excited and play up things a lot more. Part of me thinks that McLaren should just do the same, but I'm not into that kind of thing. I'd feel cheap and dirty if I knew McLaren took a leaf from Ferrari's book of how to win titles. Again, onelapdown makes a good point about pushing the boundaries of the rules. Plenty of teams have do, do and will continue to push the boundaries to gain an extra hundredth of a second. Isn't that what Formula One is all about? It's an integral part of the sport, in my opinion.

[texasmr2]

Now I am a British Hamilton supporter BUT that does not make me biased. The FIA and Spa's stewards have recieved alot of stick since that infamous decision but my personal view on the matter is that it is McLarens desire to constantly push rules to the limit which earn them its penalties.

From what I've seen Ferrari concentrate purely on racing whereas McLaren seem to be creating rubbish and talking to much trash in the media. There is much more controversy surrounding McLaren and thats because they try to get away with foul play far too often.

Prahaps if Hamilton learnt a little bit of gracefulness stewards will be kinder to him in future. His constant gloating doesn't help decisions go his way.

I dont want to debate whether the decision was correct. What I want to debate is whether McLaren are partly to blame for the penalties they recieve.

Hmm that is a very unexpected view from a supporter of a McLaren driver but it does have it's merit's. Crap now I'm confused!

[Mikep99]

I like what he say's but I think his name gives it away

It's got to be a joke

[jackarse]

I like what he say's but I think his name gives it away

It's got to be a joke

My name is meant to be JackArse because my name is Jack and I support Arsenal. It is a pun but it doesn't work without capitals.

Some intresting responses - I'll reply when I have time later.

[bud]

From what I've seen Ferrari concentrate purely on racing whereas McLaren seem to be creating rubbish and talking to much trash in the media. There is much more controversy surrounding McLaren and thats because they try to get away with foul play far too often.

you sure you arent from a parallel universe? Is Hammy a white guy in yours?

[onelapdown]

no, he's just got a little goatee beard...

[IceManpjn]

How can McLaren be to blame for this penalty? The team followed the letter of the law: Hamilton allowed Raikkonen past, thus giving up his advantage - which he gained by Raikkonen forcing him off the track. Race control said what McLaren did was legal. So, in this case, it seems to me that McLaren did everything they could to keep things above board.

I think that sums it up pretty well, for which I'm still pissed about the FiA's decision.

Now, what Kovalainen did was just plain stupid and he totally deserved his penalty for it. I was pretty disappointed in Heikki at that point, especially considering his good starting position that he just through out the window.