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#13233
If i won a competition to receive any car i wanted, I would choose a Ferrari -no contest. They are beautiful, romantic, fast, everything a car should be and yet their founder Enzo would turn in his grave at their antics in the John Toad and Michael Cheatmaester era. everytime they look threatened to loose the championship they find a way to bend the rules (cheat) and are supported by the FIA ( and we all know what that stands for). I hardly need to list the incidents, they are so numerous I cat even remember them all. The ones that spring to mind are - Adelaide, Jerez, Rascasse, Mass dampers, change of tyre regs mid season, something about barge boards, stupid putting back of Alonso last year at Monza,. winning in the pit lane,that cheating softwear on the benetton (im talking michael and ferrrari here-they were good for each other!) Without all that crap he would probably have been a two time world champion-mediocre. You guys out there can probably fill me in on all the other scams Ive forgotten about, but the one that reall insenses is the current one. If Ferrari pull this one off I realy think i will have to give up on F1-and it is a passion of my life. I regularly read autosport, go to Silverstone and watch every race and qualifying. This spy nonsense seems to have come about since Stepney mentioned knowing where the bodies were burried at Ferrari. If he spilled the beans not only would ferrari be tarnished but also the god schumacher would loose his status, the Fia be discredited, Max be finished, even Bernie be implicated. Cant be allowed to happen. I wonder how much they're paying Stepney off??? And in case that fails we have the spy saga.Their antics become more ridiculous by the year. But it is so sad for racing. It really is such a shame. Ok so now ive annoyed everyone :?:wink::cry::(:?
#13235
that cheating softwear on the benetton (im talking michael and ferrrari here-they were good for each other!)

Don't forget the illegal removal of the fuel filter which ended up causing Jos the Boss' fire in the pitlane at Hockenheim that year.
By the truth hurts
#13245
dont forget how ferrari are making mclaren cheat too? remember its mclaren on trial here not ferrari. what will u say when on thursday when its proven that mclaren is cheating?still blame ferrari by the way it was your ron dennis that complained about the renault mass damper thing because ferrari had them too it seems that people are forgetting that 85% of complaints to the fia are comming from mclaren now ferrari renault bmw honda are fighting back. its something called karma. and i hope your not forgetting the gearbox drama mclaren had too, if it was nothing they would not have gotten fined 50000. fight fire with fire! if mclaren dont have anything to hide then they wouldn,t gag anyone from speaking to the press. quote from ron dennis we (win together we lose together) we cheat together.
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By racechick
#13247
Theres nothing wrong with McLarens gearbox , it has been declared legal. It hadnt passed a crash test, that was all ,and it wasnt clear that that piece of equipment needed to pass a crash test. Its been tested now and passed so there never was a problem, Just Ferrari once again trying to destabalish a winning team.
As to your other point, the fact that is McLaren on trial and not Ferrari. Why indeed?? Since the guy stealing and passing information around belonged to Ferrari not McLaren!
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By darwin dali
#13248
Racechick, your anger is misguided and very irrational. If I was a McLaren fan, I'd be mad as hell at McLaren, disappointed and incredibly sad. I'd direct my anger foremost at RD for being incompetent at leading the team and keeping it under control, for being unable to act as a beacon in the stormy sea. I'd be very angry at Coughlan for being a corrupt lying cheat. And I'd be furious at the little whining turd FA for making things even harder on the team with his BS and now apparently with his knowledge of Ferrari secrets or at least knowledge that Ferrari data were circulating among the team members.
If it turns out that most of the picture of this whole affair that is currently been painted is true, it would represent the most serious scandal in F1 history and you can bet your sweet little arse that McLaren would be facing draconian punishment. Not just for their disappointing role in the spying saga (especially after signing a 'trust' agreement with Ferrari - how cynical!), but for bringing F1 in disrepute, something the FIA doesn't like a bit.
I know deep down you're very upset with McLaren for disappointing you and you're just redirecting your anger at the evil Ferrari because you perceive them as the root of all this madness. Try to be honest with yourself and I believe you come to the same conclusion once reasoning and common sense prevail again in your thinking.

At any rate, I think after all this it'll be high time for RD to step down and for FA to move on. McLaren needs new leadership and less controversy/tension within the team - with these two bozos gone, there's a chance McLaren can rise again like Phoenix from the ashes.
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By racechick
#13249
well i agree with you about Alonso but not the rest. Ron may be many things but he's not a cheat. I know a guy ann engineer who used to work for hi, said he was pedantic. meticulous to the point of obsessive but never in the world would he cheat. And if Coughlan is a lying cheat so is Stepney
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By darwin dali
#13250
I didn't say that RD is a cheat - I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on that one, but he's incompetent at handling his drivers and running the team. He fosters a very tense atmosphere within the team and acts like an autocrat. If there had been a better team spirit and atmosphere, I'm sure nobody would have been tempted to take advantage of the Ferrari data probably out of pressure from high above (speak RD et al.) to perform 110% at almost all costs and fear of falling short of RD's expectations. No, they would have taken the high road and done the right thing: bring the corruption to RD's attention right away and he would have had the chance to defuse the whole affair by going public. The hush hush dealings and lack of trust in each other promoted by RD's tense style is what appears to be doing them in at the end...
Yes, Stepney is a lowlife and should never be allowed to come near a race car again in any formula. Very disappointing...
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By McLaren Fan
#13261
Theres nothing wrong with McLarens gearbox , it has been declared legal. It hadnt passed a crash test, that was all ,and it wasnt clear that that piece of equipment needed to pass a crash test. Its been tested now and passed so there never was a problem, Just Ferrari once again trying to destabalish a winning team.
As to your other point, the fact that is McLaren on trial and not Ferrari. Why indeed?? Since the guy stealing and passing information around belonged to Ferrari not McLaren!

The gearbox did not have to be tested. I've read the sporting and technical regulations and there is nothing which says it has to be. Infact, I thought that was well understood in the Formula One community. It's no surprise that the issue is raised in Monza. :roll:

Ferrari's case in the spying scandal has more holes that swiss cheese, however, the Tifosi have the media on their side and are, therefore, pulling the wool over ordinary Formula One viewers who don't have all day to check out the full story.
By certom
#13262
what the hell are you saying, mixing Adelaide (MS on benetton) with Jerez (MS on Ferrari), the software of Benetton (what the guilt of MS, and also his teammate, and where's the relation with Ferrari!!!), you are talking about MS and Ferrari, whre's the relation??? Suzuka 90, Senna was an idiot becuase the consequences could have been very very harsher,maybe Prost and Ferrari would have been Champion, but i don't say that McLAren team has been a cheater because of Senna's move!!!
RD(Mclaren) has been found guilty of having personal information of Ferrari, but no penalisation for them, why? Monaco 06, Ms in THE Q3 made that unintentional move and he has been penalised for ALL his laps why? i dont see FIA as the "Ferrari international association"!!!

and what are you saying about the tifosi?? are you crazy dude, what should we do on the media and on all you Mclaren fans?????
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By ferraribird
#13273
If - IF - McLaren are found guilty RD has to carry part of the blame for not keeping a closer eye on his team. The captain of the ship and all that. He's the boss and, unfair though it might be in some cases (though I'm not sure about this case), he's the one who is ultimately responsible for the actions of his crew. I used the ship captain analogy above, but it's the same in any business.

The same applies to Ferrari. If they are implicated in any wrongdoing, the man at the top gets the biggest kicking for not keeping an eye on his crew.

In any case, as I've said elsewhere, it's the innocent parties that ultimately lose out. I think LH and FA will always be in work, and their bargaining power will be immense.

You never know, the worst that might happen is that McLaren will get stripped of their points but be allowed to stay in the sport, on probation. Which leaves us with what happens to the individual drivers' points. It would seem grossly unfair on an individual level to rob LH and there's no hard evidence that FA is implicated in anything, but on a corporate level it might have to happen.

This is assuming that McLaren are found guilty. The verdict may go the other way and Ferrari left fuming. If they are, let's hope they don't do anything silly.
User avatar
By darwin dali
#13275
I don't see how the drivers could get off scot-free, i.e., NOT get docked points or be excluded since their performance and hence point standings would have been based on the unfair advantage that McLaren gained and didn't report. So it would be grossly unfair to leave those points on the board. Remember BAR and their tank? Not just the team but the drivers were banned as well.

My speculation is the following: IF McLaren are found in breach of the sporting code (which they were found already) and guilty and all, all their results for 2007 will be voided and they'll pay a hefty fine, and I mean HEFTY. Maybe something like $50m, part of which could be held as bail for 2008. And in 2008 they might be on probation with extra scrutineering imposed.
If all this materializes, you can bet that other teams won't be too happy with the fact that McLaren together with Microsoft are in charge of making the standard ECU to be used from next year on. There could be some movement with this in the future...
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By McLaren Fan
#13284
If I was a McLaren fan, I'd be mad as hell at McLaren, disappointed and incredibly sad. I'd direct my anger foremost at RD for being incompetent at leading the team and keeping it under control, for being unable to act as a beacon in the stormy sea. I'd be very angry at Coughlan for being a corrupt lying cheat. And I'd be furious at the little whining turd FA for making things even harder on the team with his BS and now apparently with his knowledge of Ferrari secrets or at least knowledge that Ferrari data were circulating among the team members.
If it turns out that most of the picture of this whole affair that is currently been painted is true, it would represent the most serious scandal in F1 history and you can bet your sweet little arse that McLaren would be facing draconian punishment. Not just for their disappointing role in the spying saga (especially after signing a 'trust' agreement with Ferrari - how cynical!), but for bringing F1 in disrepute, something the FIA doesn't like a bit.
I know deep down you're very upset with McLaren for disappointing you and you're just redirecting your anger at the evil Ferrari because you perceive them as the root of all this madness. Try to be honest with yourself and I believe you come to the same conclusion once reasoning and common sense prevail again in your thinking.

At any rate, I think after all this it'll be high time for RD to step down and for FA to move on. McLaren needs new leadership and less controversy/tension within the team - with these two bozos gone, there's a chance McLaren can rise again like Phoenix from the ashes.


McLaren fans are not redirecting their anger at anybody. To come out with that is patronising in the extreme. In the words of Martin Brundle today, the way the issues this season have been dealt with 'stinks'. The fact is Ferrari have the authorities and media in their back pocket. It is not an anti-McLaren agenda; it is an anti-anybody-who-can-challenge-Ferrari agenda. It was Renault last year and McLaren this year. As for these incidents you cite which are supposed to have happened at McLaren. As I said above, the gearbox didn't need to be crash tested and punishment after the Alonso-Hamilton pitlane saga came from a rule which didn't exist. Regardless of the truth of the spy scandal there is definately an agenda at the Ferrari International Association.

Yeah, I am angered and saddened by the actions of Coughlan and think Alonso is an arse-hole, however, I have no anger against Ron Dennis. He knew the risks when he paired up Lauda and Prost, Senna and Prost and now Alonso and Hamilton. Overall, the risk has been worth taking. As I said in this post, the only major complication was as a result of political decision made by morally corrupt men wearing grey suits in smoke-filled rooms.

If it is proven in a fair hearing that McLaren are guilty then a strict punishment is warranted. However, that's the problem. McLaren are not getting a fair hearing and have been the butt of political decisions. I don't recognise the legitimacy of the stewards or other authorities. It's the same with other jobs: if a person doesn't do his job correctly, he gets sacked. What happens to the FIA et al. when they don't do their jobs properly?

I have not been happy with things at McLaren-Mercedes since about 2000 or 2001. Too much money has been wasted, the chasis and/or the engine have not been up to standard and the team has been too inconsistent, however, Ron Dennis can take no blame for what has happened this year.
I didn't say that RD is a cheat - I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on that one, but he's incompetent at handling his drivers and running the team. He fosters a very tense atmosphere within the team and acts like an autocrat. If there had been a better team spirit and atmosphere, I'm sure nobody would have been tempted to take advantage of the Ferrari data probably out of pressure from high above (speak RD et al.) to perform 110% at almost all costs and fear of falling short of RD's expectations. No, they would have taken the high road and done the right thing: bring the corruption to RD's attention right away and he would have had the chance to defuse the whole affair by going public. The hush hush dealings and lack of trust in each other promoted by RD's tense style is what appears to be doing them in at the end...
Yes, Stepney is a lowlife and should never be allowed to come near a race car again in any formula. Very disappointing...

If you have watched the Inside Track: Senna and McLaren tape, Ron Dennis gives an interview about he runs the team. He is no autocrat, infact, totally against that type of management. He devolves resposiblity to various people and is merely the lynchpin, holding the team together. That is why Martin Whitmarsh is there etc.

As for Stepney, there is no point in condemning him. The fact is nothing has been proven against him, and his relationship with the Ferrari team has been well documented. He reckons he has been setup and there is not an insubstantial amount of evidence to suggest so. In my opinion, this spying scandal goes far deeper than McLaren just spying on Ferrari. There are a lot of personal rivalries and grudges interfering with proceedings.
I don't see how the drivers could get off scot-free, i.e., NOT get docked points or be excluded since their performance and hence point standings would have been based on the unfair advantage that McLaren gained and didn't report. So it would be grossly unfair to leave those points on the board. Remember BAR and their tank? Not just the team but the drivers were banned as well.

My speculation is the following: IF McLaren are found in breach of the sporting code (which they were found already) and guilty and all, all their results for 2007 will be voided and they'll pay a hefty fine, and I mean HEFTY. Maybe something like $50m, part of which could be held as bail for 2008. And in 2008 they might be on probation with extra scrutineering imposed.
If all this materializes, you can bet that other teams won't be too happy with the fact that McLaren together with Microsoft are in charge of making the standard ECU to be used from next year on. There could be some movement with this in the future...

IF McLaren did spy then there is no way the drivers could get off. Ultimately they would have benefited from the data as well. Banning the team from next season is not the way to go. It would cripple McLaren which will do more damage to McLaren and Formula One that good. Stripping them of this season's points and increased checks on them for next season or something along those lines would be better for all concerned.
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By darwin dali
#13292
"McLaren fans are not redirecting their anger at anybody. To come out with that is patronising in the extreme."

No, I'm not patronizing, just speaking from what I would feel like in your shoes. For years and years the myth has been perpetrated that Ferrari is all bad and cheating and McLaren is the honorable honest bloke in the paddock. And most McLaren fans seem to have bought into this black and white brainwashing. Well, guess what? It's not so - there's much more gray on both sides. And this disillusionment is hard to stomach, it would be for anybody. Check out Dr. Elizabeth Kübler-Ross' Grief Cycle of terminal illnesses:

Shock stage: Initial paralysis at hearing the bad news.

Denial stage: Trying to avoid the inevitable.

Anger stage: Frustrated outpouring of bottled-up emotion.

Bargaining stage: Seeking in vain for a way out.

Depression stage: Final realization of the inevitable.

Testing stage: Seeking realistic solutions.

Acceptance stage: Finally finding the way forward.




"The fact is Ferrari have the authorities and media in their back pocket"

Not a fact.
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By McLaren Fan
#13294
"McLaren fans are not redirecting their anger at anybody. To come out with that is patronising in the extreme."

No, I'm not patronizing, just speaking from what I would feel like in your shoes. For years and years the myth has been perpetrated that Ferrari is all bad and cheating and McLaren is the honorable honest bloke in the paddock. And most McLaren fans seem to have bought into this black and white brainwashing. Well, guess what? It's not so - there's much more gray on both sides. And this disillusionment is hard to stomach, it would be for anybody. Check out Dr. Elizabeth Kübler-Ross' Grief Cycle of terminal illnesses:

Shock stage: Initial paralysis at hearing the bad news.

Denial stage: Trying to avoid the inevitable.

Anger stage: Frustrated outpouring of bottled-up emotion.

Bargaining stage: Seeking in vain for a way out.

Depression stage: Final realization of the inevitable.

Testing stage: Seeking realistic solutions.

Acceptance stage: Finally finding the way forward.




"The fact is Ferrari have the authorities and media in their back pocket"

Not a fact.

McLaren may not be whiter than white, in this issue or in the past, nobody is denying that. I'm certainly not. What I am saying is I strongly disgaree with you, as do many others, that Ferrari do not have the authorities in their back pocket. The FIA have a lot of previous when it comes to making political decisions and what has happened this season is the latest in an extremely long timeline of sickening political interference. Therefore, let's say that McLaren are proven to have spied on Ferrari, can you say truthfully that you are one hundred percent confident that the decision has been made in a fair, unbiased manner that is not motivated by commerce or Ferrari? The sad matter for is we can't trust those who are in charge of running the sport nevermind the teams.
By Lewisfan
#13298
All this new investigation come down to Alonso the snake. The man is upset that he is being challenged and outshine by Rookie Lewis Hamilton. I also believe he interfere with Lewis tyres on both occasions. Ron Dennis, have done nothing WRONG and should stay put. The only one that should LEAVE IS THAT snake Alonso.

Image

Great Lewis with the vile Snake hiding behind his sunglasses, what a nasty little man!!!!!!!

Alonso should go back with that snake Flavio Briatore his boyfriend
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Last edited by Lewisfan on 08 Sep 07, 20:43, edited 1 time in total.

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