FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[CookinFlat6]

As the debates about the engines have now passed into historical interest, its time to look at the the reality of the second stage of this fascinating technology race, especially as we have a 4th entry - no less than the worlds biggest engine maker - Honda. At present the unknown, therefore a lot of scope for an interesting season as we see where they slot in and how good they really can be.

Just to conclude what happened in 2014 and move forward here is an interesting summary

All last year, F1's engine builders were locked in an acrimonious negotiation about the rules for 2015, with Mercedes insisting that the 2015 engines had to be frozen in February and could not be improved until 2016. Toto Wolff cited the expense that continuous testing and development of engines across a season would bring.

Such was the cast-iron nature of the engine rules that F1 teams running anything less than a Mercedes engine started to get a bit twitchy. Christian Horner even started talking about going back to dinosaur V8 engines in the future: "Nobody likes to go backwards, but sometimes you have got to look," said Horner in a particularly memorable bit of manoeuvring in November.

He attached this argument to the fact that the new teams were struggling for money. "Desperate means require desperate measures, and I think that you are looking at the costs of these power units, how sustainable is it for all the teams and indeed all the manufacturers?"

But what he actually wanted to do was scare Mercedes into allowing concessions for 2015 so that actually Renault and Ferrari could spend even more money on their engines. Saying one thing and meaning another is the classic tactic of Christian's adopted grandfather-figure Bernie Ecclestone - for whom a return to noisy V8 engines would have been more than welcome.

Back then the James Allison Proposition, from Ferrari's technical chief, that the rules didn't state a point in 2015 when they had to be homologated, was given little chance of succeeding. No team would dare to run an unhomolgated engine in Melbourne and then be chucked out by the scrutineers was the accepted view across the paddock.

Then over Christmas, FIA Race Director Charlie Whiting suddenly advised teams that they could homologate engines when they wanted to, effectively unfreezing them for 2015. But, he added, new entrant Honda couldn't. They would have to run the whole season with an engine locked down in February, just as the three other teams had done last year. That was definite. They couldn't make an exception on this.

Except at the end of last week, they suddenly gave Honda the go-ahead to change their engine - via the token system - all season long. Just like the others.

I think we are looking at a relative order of;
Mercedes




Honda



Renault






Ferrari

[Hammer278]

With RD upselling the Honda engine so much earlier (Magnificent/Piece of Art/Etc) they better be closer to Merc than what you've done there.

[What's Burning?]

The thing is that it's not just horsepower, it's about delivery and driveability of the PU as a whole. Some speculation had gone into the chasm that seemed to have existed in power last year, but the truth is the Ferrari engine may be as little at 10 Bhp down on Renault, which is apparently 40 down on the Merc but it's how the peak power is gotten to the torque curve, the application of ERS that seems to be making the difference more obvious.

[CookinFlat6]

Totally agree on that, The reason I put Honda that much behind Merc is purely a function of the 1 year x 4 data sets that Merc have over Honda, no matter what a good engine they come with. They will need to actually get the best out of the tech on the tracks. Having Alonso will undoubtedly help but there no substitute for data from race conditions.

Already Honda are proposing their interest in the way the regs could evolve - 4 electric engines powering each wheel instead of a central drive unit now. So they are a different league to last years losers but they are still gonna need the data to extract the performance to trouble Merc soon IMO

[Hammer278]

Formula 1 speed increase predicted for 2015 cars

The 2015 Formula 1 cars could start the season up to three seconds per lap quicker than last year's pace, reckons Pirelli motorsport director Paul Hembery.

Ahead of the opening pre-season test at Jerez in Spain from February 1, the prediction is that teams will unleash a dramatic speed jump for 2015.

It comes a year after complaints that the new V6 turbo cars were too slow and not sufficiently challenging.

Hembery, whose company in its role as official F1 tyre supplier has an insight into the development progress of all teams, has no doubts that the situation will be different this year.

He admits that such a speed increase, through aerodynamic developments and engine upgrades, will be a test for the Pirelli compounds.

"Our initial data is suggesting there are going to be some big jumps," Hembery told AUTOSPORT.

"The teams have had the ability to change things over the winter, particularly on the powertrain front, and we anticipate by the time we are in Melbourne, or at the latest China, we will see some pretty significant jumps compared to last season.

"We know we are always chasing a moving target - and I think we are talking about maybe being two to three seconds per lap quicker than last season. That is a massive difference.

"It means for our tyres that what was last year a conservative choice might actually be quite aggressive this season."

BACK ON V8 PACE

A three-seconds-per-lap time improvement will put the new generation of F1 cars back on a par with the old V8-powered challengers.

Due to rain-hit qualifying sessions in Australia, Malaysia and China last year, it was hard to judge how far off the previous pace the 2014 cars were.

However in Bahrain, the first event of 2014 where there was a dry qualifying, the pole position time last year set by Nico Rosberg was 1m33.185s.

That compares with the 1m32.330s lap that the German claimed pole with the year before.

The fastest pole position lap on the current Bahrain configuration was set in 2004 by Michael Schumacher at 1m30.139s - a target that could be within reach if Hembery's predictions are correct.

Williams technical director Pat Symonds certainly believes that development progress will be rapid this year - even though teams have lost downforce through the nose change.
"The cars will get faster because we are always evolving," he said.

"We have taken a bit of a hit aerodynamically for 2015 but we will get over that.

"I would not mind seeing them faster, I wouldn't mind seeing more power."

________________________________________________

Incredible, V6 already on the brink of matching the V10s of 2004. I recall a couple of (now defunct) whingers on this board whinging and whining about the cars being soooo slowwwwwwww.

[CookinFlat6]

Yeah i seem to remeber how sure the whingers were that the speeds would remain slower forever - mind you when it comes to Ferrari they may have had a crystal ball or someting because we heard late last year that ferraris 2015 car was already a couple of seconds slower in the sim

Maybe they will bring the satelite based whinging, sorry , telemetry system from last year that made them look slower than they actually wanted us to beleive

Some exemplary 666 style sandbagging - hopefully we will see more 'boycoting' of slow boring F1 this year

[racechick]

I'd like to quote Pat Symonds to those people who didn't like the hybrid technology because they wanted more noise..............
@andrewbensonf1: Williams tech chief Pat Symonds sums up the crux of the problem for those who want louder F1 engines: "Noise is wasted energy"

[CookinFlat6]

Yup, completely arsed down thinking that could only be found in F1 amongst trolls of Bernie's age group and mentality (and of course in the sheep followers)

It's like saying 'I want my iPad mini to make pound whirring noises and to click and hum and buzz and give off excess heat that burns my hand whilst killing my battery in 20 minutes

Because that's how my commodore Vic was in the good old days

At least Bernie is just an old school peasant, but the younger fans who sheep along and then blame Merc

[stonemonkey]

Totally agree on that, The reason I put Honda that much behind Merc is purely a function of the 1 year x 4 data sets that Merc have over Honda.....

Not only that 1 year, Honda also missed out on all the KERS development race, they were probably leading the field in that area at the time they pulled out but everyone else will now have much more experience with it.

[CookinFlat6]

Honda have the biggest R&D budget and facilities for Hybrid etc tech in the world. And the likelihood is they have continued developing their Kers etc all this time even without racing, and possibly have come back on the back of a belief they cracked something. This ties in with Ron talking about Hondas 'unseen anywhere else tech' and 'big risks' on deploying it. Which could be an excuse for the last few days or could be a particular surprise they have in mind and thats what they sold Alonso on

Could flip either way, they could be way behind or in front on Ers, but will still need on track running to optimise it

[What's Burning?]

Totally agree on that, The reason I put Honda that much behind Merc is purely a function of the 1 year x 4 data sets that Merc have over Honda.....

Not only that 1 year, Honda also missed out on all the KERS development race, they were probably leading the field in that area at the time they pulled out but everyone else will now have much more experience with it.

Good point, regardless of how much consumer grade hybrid stuff they build, F1 is not consumer grade.

Honda I'm sure copied every square inch of the Merc design, it's just making it all work as well that they'll wrestle with for a bit.

[stonemonkey]

Totally agree on that, The reason I put Honda that much behind Merc is purely a function of the 1 year x 4 data sets that Merc have over Honda.....

Not only that 1 year, Honda also missed out on all the KERS development race, they were probably leading the field in that area at the time they pulled out but everyone else will now have much more experience with it.

Good point, regardless of how much consumer grade hybrid stuff they build, F1 is not consumer grade.

Honda I'm sure copied every square inch of the Merc design, it's just making it all work as well that they'll wrestle with for a bit.

I dont think they'll have copied, possibly influenced by but with their own solutions. They'd done a fair bit of research into the batteries and MGU's and how it should all be integrated for F1 before they quit and if cookin's right that they might've continued with that and with that being an even more important factor in an F1 PU now maybe they do have something beyond what anyone else has got on that front. It would be massive for Honda if they did, to showcase what they can do with hybrid tech.

[CookinFlat6]

Totally agree on that, The reason I put Honda that much behind Merc is purely a function of the 1 year x 4 data sets that Merc have over Honda.....

Not only that 1 year, Honda also missed out on all the KERS development race, they were probably leading the field in that area at the time they pulled out but everyone else will now have much more experience with it.

Good point, regardless of how much consumer grade hybrid stuff they build, F1 is not consumer grade.

Honda I'm sure copied every square inch of the Merc design, it's just making it all work as well that they'll wrestle with for a bit.

As far as tech, Honda have a somewhat curious reputation amongst the Japanese giants as hell bent on technological solutions without bothering with the problems first. And their usp has been to fund and invest heavier in research and 'new frontiers' etc than the more straightforward business of making good money by making and selling cars that transport Tokyo salarymen from red light district to golf course.(I have experience with a Japanese corporation and this is said with respectful affection) These guys do tech for the hell of it and are not really on the same plain as your Toyotas etc.

They even built a robot called Asimov IIRC that basically escorted visitors to the right department, and then suddenly became the front line of personal robotry. They pile money into tech projects that never get used all the time 'just in case' I think I even heard they built racing engines for all the top series 'just in case'
They are actually more likely to have continued with the F1 Kers stuff just to give their young engineers some target practice. They have much better hybrid tech than the Prius but its like they cant be bothered to market it and make real money because they love tech so much.

Lets not forget stuff like the earth car etc, these guys have been on the almost looney fringe since the sixties (ok maybe I exagerate a bit but looking at their history - they are seriously quirky and eccentric)

[What's Burning?]

Hey OB since you've decided to jump back into the season, I'd love to know what you think about competition no longer being stifled.

Red Bull's Adrian Newey believes Formula One's regulations are still too restrictive for chassis manufacturers and the performance of power units have too much influence on the competitive order.

I'm curious what your complaint will be about this year?

[CookinFlat6]

I think he will be pointing out that the 2014 W05 and the 2015 W06 are too confusing with the 5 and 4 misleading, and so it's not easy spot them breaking rules and cheating like others such as the RB10

It's so unfair