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[backseatdriver]

it has been like that for last 4 years. why is it so much less powerful than mercedes and ferrari? it is solely because of this that red bull are slowest in speed traps? (until neweys genius drs solution).

but red bull with a mercedes engine would not only be fastest in corners but straights aswell.

because it is an issue that has affected renaults' engines for last few years that means they dont have a solution to making it as powerful as mercedes and ferrari engines i assume.

and if that is the case can we assume that mercedes and ferrari engines in 2014 will again be more powerful than renault and red bull will be slowest in speed traps unless newey can think of another aerodynamic workaround?

[racechick]

Hello backseatdriver welcome. I'm perhaps not the best to answer this questions as my technical abilities are not very good. I'll have a go but technical people please HELP!
In 2014 all the engines will be less powerful to conform with the new regs that come out then, (v6 turbos) this may help Renault. Also though its not the current fastest and most powerful engine it gains in others ways (like torque, and when the power comes in?? I think )
Where Ferrari and Mercedes will gain an advantage in 2014 with the new rules and regs is that they will be designing both chassis and engine in house.

Ok tech geeks, rip me apart

[Hammer278]

I don't think there's a specific technical reason for this...last I heard about Renault is their unique 120 degree engine which was used in the early 2000s. They are now back to the conventional 90 degree...and since the engine developments were frozen which was indeed few years back, the fundamentals could not be changed. Thus they lagged in horses, but make up with it in regards to driveability...better 'feel' through slow and medium speed corners compared to the engines which are more powerful.

[scotty]

it has been like that for last 4 years. why is it so much less powerful than mercedes and ferrari? it is solely because of this that red bull are slowest in speed traps? (until neweys genius drs solution).

but red bull with a mercedes engine would not only be fastest in corners but straights aswell.

because it is an issue that has affected renaults' engines for last few years that means they dont have a solution to making it as powerful as mercedes and ferrari engines i assume.

and if that is the case can we assume that mercedes and ferrari engines in 2014 will again be more powerful than renault and red bull will be slowest in speed traps unless newey can think of another aerodynamic workaround?

It is a myth that the engine is THAT much less powerful than the Mercedes and Ferrari. Perhaps a couple of years ago early in the V8 days maybe, but i don't think so now - at an educated guess the difference is probably only a few horsepower. But that doesn't include other important aspects like torque, fuel consumption, drivability/power band, engine life (ie how much the power drops off over its life), and so on. And it would appear the general opinion is that the Renault is the best engine in these areas. Problem is, no one really knows the true specs for each engine so who knows, really.

However i am fairly sure that a lot of the difference these days is aerodynamic set up and how the car is geared, more than the outright engine performance. In qualifying at Spa the Red Bulls were quickest in the speed trap, and at Monza the Lotuses were, both run Renault engines so go figure...

In 2014, i think we will see KERS becoming the big factor over the engine. Not necessarily in outright power as it will still be limited, but the other aspects like how it affects the braking of the car and so on. But i would be surprised if aerodynamics were not still the overriding and key factor in straight line speed (and lap time).

[Jabberwocky]

Kimi said that the engine lost a lot of power when Lotus run the conard exhaust, so maybe the myth of less power was that the teams had issues with the air box and exhaust when the myth began.

[darwin dali]

Kimi said that the engine lost a lot of power when Lotus run the conard exhaust, so maybe the myth of less power was that the teams had issues with the air box and exhaust when the myth began.

You mean Coanda exhaust, don't you?

[Jabberwocky]

Yes

using phone, so beware of predictive text errors.

[myownalias]

From what I have heard over the past few years, I believe that the Renault engine is about 10hp down on the Mercedes and Ferrrari lumps. I also believe that the Renault engine is more frugal with fuel which means it can run at higher revs for longer or simply uses less fuel, weight is king in F1 so less fuel means less weight, what is it they say... 1 lap of fuel if worth one tenth?

I believe that come 2014; we'll probably end up with a pretty even spread; building the engine and chassis doesn't mean anything, look at Toyota and Honda, they build both engine and chassis; neither team really shone in F1 and eventually left the sport due to financial reasons after pouring in upto $400m each year.

[acosmichippo]

From what I have heard over the past few years, I believe that the Renault engine is about 10hp down on the Mercedes and Ferrrari lumps. I also believe that the Renault engine is more frugal with fuel which means it can run at higher revs for longer or simply uses less fuel, weight is king in F1 so less fuel means less weight, what is it they say... 1 lap of fuel if worth one tenth?

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. It would also help explain why Red Bull was able to take great advantage of the exhaust blown diffuser last year. Fuel efficient engines mean they have more fuel to burn to blow gases over the diffuser.

[spankyham]

Good points from Scotty and Myown.

The reality is that there is almost no power difference between the 4 engines since the freeze. At the start of the freeze there was, but teams have been allowed to make changes, most notably Renault, to "catch-up". Therefore today there really isn't a power difference. Renault is supposed to have a slight advantage in fuel consumption, but I doubt it is significant - if it was the other teams would be screaming and putting up cases to be allowed to make changes.

On Myown's point that a lap is worth about a tenth that's usually right, I prefer to say about 1 tenth per 5Klms - I find that a slightly better rule of thumb as circuits do have quite a large variety of lap distances - that's why races have such a large variation in the numbers of laps. But they always cover just over the 300Klms distance, ie race distance is 300Klms plus finish the lap

The question posed by the original post is best addressed this way, Red Bull is perennially slow in top speed because they choose to be, not because of the engine. If they want to be they can be fast, and this is well shown by Scotty's example of their speed at Spa, a circuit where down force place a lesser role.

Top Speed is directly reflective of drag. Drag comes from down force - although some df has a higher drag penalty that other df (i.e. wing df costs more drag than under the car df) Additionally where the drag is incurred has a large bearing on its acceptability (i.e. drag in front of the front wheels is acceptable and there is little need to mitigate drag at that position).

Philosophically Red Bull chases df and, will sacrifice almost anything at the alter of df - this has proven a winning philosophy under the current regulations. A good example here was their KERS system last year, it was reduced in size and capability to reduce the volume Adrian had to package into the car and thereby gave him greater flexibility in tightening and shaping of the rear of the car to greater exploit the airflow and therefore creatable df.

[racechick]

Thanks guys. Excellent job I learnt loads there.
So to summarise
1.renault used to be less powerful but have been allowed to catch up during the engine freeze
2. Renault engine is lighter so can have less fuel=go faster
3. Sometimes Red Bull choose to make the engine go slower so the car will stick to the ground better.



I have a question now. Will the Renault in any way be advantaged when the rule changes come? I know the big fast powerful engine people aren't so keen on going to the v6's. who do you think, given their engine making history , will come up with the best engine?

[darwin dali]

:clap: Thanks guys. Excellent job I learnt loads there.
So to summarise
1.renault used to be more powerful but have been allowed to catch up during the engine freeze

Renault engines used to be LESS powerful, but have been allowed to catch up.

[What's Burning?]

to your other question... 2014 is anyone's guess. reliability over horse power would be my guess.

[myownalias]

Renault engines used to be LESS powerful, but have been allowed to catch up.

It does beg the question; what's the point of the engine freeze? if they wanted all the engines to have the same power, why not just have a spec engine and be done with it!

[Jabberwocky]

Without the engine freeze Merc and Ferrari would probably be up another 100bhp and Renault would still be on the back foot. However we would have more engine pops

using phone, so beware of predictive text errors.