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[myownalias]

It seems that teams don't trust their drivers who get paid millions of $$$ to not crash into each other; says a lot about the teams confidence in their drivers doesn't it?

I think it is very easy for two drivers to crash into each other.
A wrong assumption is enough (eg. "Webber is going to yield, I can move right") for the whole thing to end in a disaster.
And having Red Bull issued that warning that team-mates fighting each other can be very dangerous points-wise, I think it's normal Ferrari decided to do it the "hard way".
Team-mates battling is always a very risky thing, as we have seen in the past. Also because the rivalship within the team is unique.

Also, they don't necessarily need to "crash into each other", they just need to break a front wing; which is nowadays very easy to do.

The Vettel/Webber incident was caused by Vettel's inexperience and apparent inability to overtake his main rivals without crashing. The serious racing is likely to be between team mates as they have the same equipment and telling drivers to hold station or let driver "A" pass driver "B" robs us; the spectators of the spectacle that F1 is supposed to be. I would love F1 to have the same philosophy as the SpeedTV show "Pinks All Out" - either you give everything or you'll be on your way home!

Still, he was someway behind Alonso despite Alonso's various mistakes and poor luck.

Things would be very different if Massa won and Alonso came home in second; the points be would as follows:

Alonso - 134
Massa - 116

18 points difference; should Alonso crash or finish out of the points at Monza and Massa finished in second or better, he would be equal or in front of Alonso on points, as things stand; Massa can not overtake Alonso in the WDC because of that decision to swap positions; Alonso is 32 points ahead because of Ferrari's actions in Germany!

[The Immortal Dragon]

It seems that teams don't trust their drivers who get paid millions of $$$ to not crash into each other; says a lot about the teams confidence in their drivers doesn't it?

I think it is very easy for two drivers to crash into each other.
A wrong assumption is enough (eg. "Webber is going to yield, I can move right") for the whole thing to end in a disaster.
And having Red Bull issued that warning that team-mates fighting each other can be very dangerous points-wise, I think it's normal Ferrari decided to do it the "hard way".
Team-mates battling is always a very risky thing, as we have seen in the past. Also because the rivalship within the team is unique.

Also, they don't necessarily need to "crash into each other", they just need to break a front wing; which is nowadays very easy to do.

The Vettel/Webber incident was caused by Vettel's inexperience and apparent inability to overtake his main rivals without crashing.

True, but touching in an overtaking manoeuvre is very easy as we are witnessing with those ridiculously wide front wings.

[myownalias]

It seems that teams don't trust their drivers who get paid millions of $$$ to not crash into each other; says a lot about the teams confidence in their drivers doesn't it?

I think it is very easy for two drivers to crash into each other.
A wrong assumption is enough (eg. "Webber is going to yield, I can move right") for the whole thing to end in a disaster.
And having Red Bull issued that warning that team-mates fighting each other can be very dangerous points-wise, I think it's normal Ferrari decided to do it the "hard way".
Team-mates battling is always a very risky thing, as we have seen in the past. Also because the rivalship within the team is unique.

Also, they don't necessarily need to "crash into each other", they just need to break a front wing; which is nowadays very easy to do.

The Vettel/Webber incident was caused by Vettel's inexperience and apparent inability to overtake his main rivals without crashing.

True, but touching in an overtaking manoeuvre is very easy as we are witnessing with those ridiculously wide front wings.

Crashes; between team mates or otherwise are as much a part of F1 as team orders have been over the past 60 years, frankly if it weren't for the controversy I would have switched off and used my time for something else; I used to get up at 7am to watch the races; these days I just watch the replay on the iPlayer; in my opinion, F1 is a poor imitation of what it was when I first started watching in the very early 90s, the sport I fell in love with no-longer exists, sadly!

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

SEPTEMBER 9, 2010
A victory for common sense

The judging body of the World Motor Sport Council's decision to confirm Ferrari's $100,000 fine for a breach of article 39.1 of the sporting regulations but take no further action is a victory for common sense.

What Ferrari did in the German Grand Prix was no more nor less than has been done throughout motor sport history. The fact that it upset some of the viewing public is not the issue. The emphasis should be on fans educating themselves about the sport and not the sport changing its rules to suit uninformed spectators.

The biggest mistake made was to bring in the team orders ban in the first place, in response to Ferrari's cynicism during the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix, when Rubens Barrichello was ordered to give up his win in race six to a Michael Schumacher who had won four of the first five races. Changing the rules was a clear case of tail wagging dog.

Jean Todt, then Ferrari's sporting director, was the architect of Ferrari's unnecessary actions that day but the fact was that he'd done nothing wrong, however unpalatable the decision seemed. But, reaction from fans and media alike was vehement.

Ferrari was widely held to have brought the sport into disrepute and you could see the argument. The only transgression they'd made though, was to disrupt the podium ceremony when the embarrassed Schumacher ushered Barrichello up onto the top step. That confused the trophy-presenting dignitaries, for which Ferrari was hit with a $1m fine, somewhat disproportionate to the offence...

Up until then, the rule had specified that teams should not do anything prejudicial to the interests of competition and that nothing that interfered with the result of a race would be tolerated. This was introduced post-Jerez '97 when there were suspicions of collusion between Williams and McLaren and a feeling that Sauber's Norberto Fontana had assisted Michael Schumacher.

A clarification, however, said that it was legitimate for a team to decide that one of its drivers was its championship contender and to act accordingly. That was over-ridden by the 2002 team orders ban and resulted in teams continuing to adopt team orders as they always did, but with a degree of subterfuge and subtlety.

The best example of it was the 2007 Brazilian Grand Prix when Felipe Massa, again, was moved aside to allow Ferrari team mate Kimi Raikkonen to win the race and the title. That was achieved via a slower in-lap/pit stop. But is that or any other way a team achieves the same result, better than allowing more obvious team orders?

The view of most in the paddock is that it was not, that properly policing the ban is impossible and that the sooner it is repealed, the better. However, Max Mosley, now a member of the FIA Senate, recently weighed in with the view that the Ferrari drivers should lose their points from Hockenheim.

Quite what the justification for that would have been, is hard to grasp. Alonso, patently, had done nothing wrong, and for Massa to do other than follow an 'order' would presumably have breached his conditions of employment, so you could argue that he had Hobson's choice.

Considering that, if further action was to have been taken it would have been far more sensible for it to have been loss of constructors points, as it was for McLaren over the spying issue, when a simultaneous drivers' penalty would have been much more appropriate.

It is good to see common sense prevail despite Mosley's proclamation. The news that "article 39.1 of the Sporting Regulations should be reviewed" and that the question has been referred to the Sporting Working Group comes not one moment before time.

[vaptin]

I think I find it stranger that they changed the 01 rule in the first place? Didn't Ferrari get punished severely under the old rule? Then doesn't that prove the rule worked, wtf do you change it for?

[The Immortal Dragon]

It seems that teams don't trust their drivers who get paid millions of $$$ to not crash into each other; says a lot about the teams confidence in their drivers doesn't it?

I think it is very easy for two drivers to crash into each other.
A wrong assumption is enough (eg. "Webber is going to yield, I can move right") for the whole thing to end in a disaster.
And having Red Bull issued that warning that team-mates fighting each other can be very dangerous points-wise, I think it's normal Ferrari decided to do it the "hard way".
Team-mates battling is always a very risky thing, as we have seen in the past. Also because the rivalship within the team is unique.

Also, they don't necessarily need to "crash into each other", they just need to break a front wing; which is nowadays very easy to do.

The Vettel/Webber incident was caused by Vettel's inexperience and apparent inability to overtake his main rivals without crashing.

True, but touching in an overtaking manoeuvre is very easy as we are witnessing with those ridiculously wide front wings.

Crashes; between team mates or otherwise are as much a part of F1 as team orders have been over the past 60 years, frankly if it weren't for the controversy I would have switched off and used my time for something else; I used to get up at 7am to watch the races; these days I just watch the replay on the iPlayer; in my opinion, F1 is a poor imitation of what it was when I first started watching in the very early 90s, the sport I fell in love with no-longer exists, sadly!

Unfortunately it is true, F1 used to be more exciting a few years ago, but unfortunately what the fans' and the teams' point of view on the team orders issue is very different, and personally I don't think there's any way out of it. In the end, we can't make the teams not to use team orders.

[f1ea]

Things would be very different if Massa won and Alonso came home in second; the points be would as follows:

Alonso - 134
Massa - 116

18 points difference; should Alonso crash or finish out of the points at Monza and Massa finished in second or better, he would be equal or in front of Alonso on points, as things stand; Massa can not overtake Alonso in the WDC because of that decision to swap positions; Alonso is 32 points ahead because of Ferrari's actions in Germany!

1) You have that information NOW. Ferrari didn't have it during the Hockenheim GP. And even with your new standings... the gap to the other runners would be larger than it is now... for either driver.

2) Ferrari dont care where their drivers finish respective to eachother. They care that the gap to either of their drivers remains the smallest possible. With the positions reversed (Massa 1st) I'm sure the gap to the WDC contenders would have been larger, despite Massa being closer to Alonso, which Ferrari dont care about.

Its very simple.

[myownalias]

SEPTEMBER 9, 2010
A victory for common sense

The emphasis should be on fans educating themselves about the sport and not the sport changing its rules to suit uninformed spectators.

I find the above statement very insulting; there are plenty of fans out there that are very knowledgeable about the sport and are fully in possession of the facts concerning the history of team orders. Traditionally team orders are only used when one driver is out of the title race or has a minuscule chance of mathematically winning the title! The incident in Germany was not required (and put F1 in the spotlight for the wrong reasons [AGAIN]) with 225 points still up for grabs and is directly detrimental to the championship; as I highlighted above with the 18 point difference that would have been going into the Italian GP if Massa was allowed to win the German GP!

[myownalias]

1) You have that information NOW. Ferrari didn't have it during the Hockenheim GP. And even with your new standings... the gap to the other runners would be larger than it is now... for either driver.

Yes we do know this now; and for all we know; Alonso could completely self destruct which he has already done many times this season and Massa could have a good run of points hauls and suddenly be #1 Ferrari driver for the title; Ferrari will be kicking themselves if Massa loses the drivers title by six points or less!

2) Ferrari dont care where their drivers finish respective to eachother. They care that the gap to either of their drivers remains the smallest possible. With the positions reversed (Massa 1st) I'm sure the gap to the WDC contenders would have been larger, despite Massa being closer to Alonso, which Ferrari dont care about.

I believe it was too early to pick one driver over another, especially when two non-points finishes for Alonso and two good points hauls for Massa would change everything; If Alonso was 100 points ahead I could see the logic but 38 points; which could be easily overhauled given the right circumstances and current points system!

I don't have an issue with team orders per-se; it's more how their implemented; using team orders when one driver is 38 points ahead at race 11 of 20 is unnecessary and detrimental to the sport and damages the reputation of the sport further. If one driver has very little chance of winning the title after say 15 or 16 races out of 20 then it makes sense to use team orders. Uneducated fans or not; they are the ones that put their hard earned cash down and attend races; people will not bother attending if they believe that they are going to see a sham race, without the fans, the sport is literally nothing; many fans see the FIA as taking them for fools!

[AKR]

yet again missing the point.

there are millions more fans watching on tv than at the race, but i imagine they don't count right because you haven't studied their clothes.

you wonder why so many people on this forum are ferrari haters, it may not be the only reason but for me anyway its the attitude that gets me, its always the same thing.... "Ferrari ARE F1" , if you cannot see the problem with that then stop calling everyone ferrari haters based on non opinion comments.

we are abit off topic FYI

so, how can FIA say they dont have enough evidence to prove ferrari used team orders but not give back the fine, and not clear ferrari of it.

But we are F1 and I see no problems with facts. What I see is a few minority people like youeself having a cry. Ferrari is F1 and everyone else is second status to Ferrari.

[AKR]

I've been looking over Ferrari's defence a bit in some summaries...Amazingly, it seems they have tried to claim at some point that Massa slowed down by accident or through demoralisation when Smedley told him he was slower. Which is the most ludicrous claim I've ver heard, but that's not the crazy part.


The crazy part is when you try to explain why Smedley said "Good lad" and "Sorry" in that fantastical scenario.

You've got to hand it to Ferrari, when they cheat, they really go for it

But we didn't cheat. We legitemetly came 1st and 2nd in that race. If our drivers swapped places, who cares. They were 1st and 2nd anyway. They didn't cheat to get there. People have got to be stupid to think this stupid. Clowns is what I call these people.

[AKR]

Screw them, Lewis got stripped off points/win(s) in his WDC year and still got the damn trophy.

These Ferrari turds will cheat and cheat and still not win squat this season. I look forward to their a_ss getting handed to them at home ground this Sunday. By whoever, McLaren, Redbull, Force India, bring it on.

McLaren and Hamiton are just insignificant turds that shouldn't be in F1. F1is all Ferrari and Ferrari will always be the most successful and greatest in F1. Red Bull and either Vettel or Webber will insure that McLaren do not close this gap in anyway this season. All I can say is this. Only clowns don't go for Ferrari. If you want to mock Ferrari, than you're an idiot. And this thread is nothingmore than a waste of time for the little insignifant cry babies in the F1 world who don't like Ferrari to have a cry. And remember F1 is the greatest motorsport of them all because of Ferrari. Without Ferrari F1 wouldn't be any more important than say Indycar or Nascar.

[billindenver]

In the Tour de France, a team mate will fall to the back of the peleton, grab water for his team mates and then race it back up. That's his job. He's a racer, certainly...but his job is to support the team. Another member of the team will tow his team mates using the draft and burn himself to the ground doing so....in order to make a gap, so someone else can win. He may not even have enough energy in reserve to complete the stage...but he did his job. The fans understand this principal and it takes place with far more team mates involved. A teammate who makes a superhuman effort to drag his number one rider to the front is often loved for giving that number one the win within sight of the finish..an there isn't any crying over race fixing or 'we were robbed of the team mates sprinting for the win'. Because the fans are educated as to WHY the TEAM is there at all. They are there to WIN as a TEAM...and often that means an entire crew of teammates sacrificing themselves just to get their number one from the crash back up to the peleton. The fans are educated as to why, and they accept it.

To say that F1 fans can't understand the same principal as it is accepted in various other forms of racing is to say that F1 fans are ignorant and petty. Certainly, some clearly are...but most are not and most understand the team principal. In this forum, we find that the ones who scream the loudest when Ferrari does it, are completely silent and in denial when obvious examples of their own team doing the exact same thing are presented. We can show them statements from McLaren's team principal when he was asked why the number 2 yielded to the number 1 driver...where he said 'we only tell them their relative speed to the team mate behind them...and let them decide'. This being precisely word for word what Ferrari did is something they refuse to even acknowledge. So in the end what we have are fans who hate red, and do their best to raise a fuss when they feel it will benefit their team. There is no desire for justice or fair play...they just want to hurt the other guy so their team does better. And if their team is obviously using team orders....they will have no problem with it at all....as has been proven in the past. Nothing new here.

[myownalias]

Ferrari is F1 and everyone else is second status to Ferrari.

Well in that case; McLaren, Red Bull, Renault, Williams, Sauber, Mercedes, Force India, Toro Rosso, Lotus, Virgin and HRT might as well pack up and go home then...

To say that F1 fans can't understand the same principal as it is accepted in various other forms of racing is to say that F1 fans are ignorant and petty. Certainly, some clearly are...but most are not and most understand the team principal. In this forum, we find that the ones who scream the loudest when Ferrari does it, are completely silent and in denial when obvious examples of their own team doing the exact same thing are presented. We can show them statements from McLaren's team principal when he was asked why the number 2 yielded to the number 1 driver...where he said 'we only tell them their relative speed to the team mate behind them...and let them decide'. This being precisely word for word what Ferrari did is something they refuse to even acknowledge. So in the end what we have are fans who hate red, and do their best to raise a fuss when they feel it will benefit their team. There is no desire for justice or fair play...they just want to hurt the other guy so their team does better. And if their team is obviously using team orders....they will have no problem with it at all....as has been proven in the past. Nothing new here.

. Really couldn't have put it better myself; the old turning a blind eye when it concerns their own interests!!!

[spankyham]

A message to everyone that has posted along these lines:-
- The rule exists
- I accept the inuendo/inconclusive evidence that a team order was given
- Ferrari and their drivers should loose those the points.

Now that the WMSC, in their decision has accepted Ferrari's submission that Team Orders were used in the past. Ferrari specifically documented Germany 2008 Lewser and HK. Therefore it is now confirmed that Lewser used team orders to pass HK in Germany 08.

Given this, every person who posted that Ferrari and its drivers should loose points, must now agree that Lewser is not the 2008 World Champion, and that Felipe is the rightful 2008 world champion.