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User avatar
By myownalias
#162705
If teams were to run their engines a little leaner, they could easily go the race distance by saving a little more than 0.18 litres per mile, 0.75 per average lap without changing fuel cell size; assuming that F1 cars currently use a 200 litre fuel cell! Basically saving 1 mile of fuel before four miles travelled; it's a realistic target for teams to achieve!
User avatar
By 7UpJordan
#162708
I think I've mentioned this previously, but I wonder if the fact the Brawn was originally designed around the Honda engine has put them back later on this year? Being able to design the 2010 Brawn car around the Mercedes engine will be a crucial factor.
User avatar
By darwin dali
#162801
I think I've mentioned this previously, but I wonder if the fact the Brawn was originally designed around the Honda engine has put them back later on this year? Being able to design the 2010 Brawn car around the Mercedes engine will be a crucial factor.

:yes:
User avatar
By darwin dali
#162803
Weight distribution, more weight on the tires, especially during the first third of the race, change in car behavior over the race distance with the weight going down, more load on the engine with heavier car - there is plenty of things a clever engineer could tinker with and come up with better solutions than the competition.
At any rate, to call it a year of no rule changes is simply not the case.

OK, I accept that calling it a year of no rule changes is incorrect and I stand corrected but it was a comment in relation to the dozens of major changes this season!

Does anyone know just how much bigger the fuel cell will have to be to go a whole race distance? or other options; if there is going to be a temporary suspension of the engine freeze then maybe teams will make their engine design more efficient to offset the refuelling ban, fuel cells will remain the same size while fuel economy will be improved! Yes it will probably produce slightly less power but at the same time, less fuel weight requires less power to move it.

They already have the capability to run an engine leaner - they sometimes do it on the fly such as "Rubens, we have to save fuel, go C-4, go C-4!"

I've heard it mentioned; a number of teams can run to 3/4 distance on a rich fuel/air mix, if they made the engine run leaner, then fuel cells wouldn't have to be larger!

Hence nothing really changes, or at least minimal change, it'll certainly be interesting to see which way teams go; more power, bigger tank or less power, smaller tank!

there is plenty of things a clever engineer could tinker with and come up with better solutions than the competition.
:wink:
User avatar
By myownalias
#162805
there is plenty of things a clever engineer could tinker with and come up with better solutions than the competition.
:wink:

I am willing to bet the top teams will end up with the same solution or will adapt their solution to follow the best practical solution within a matter of races. We'll see who does what next season! I simply believe that the refuelling ban won't make a real difference!

From my calculations above teams will have to save one mile (0.75L) of fuel per every four miles to avoid installing a bigger fuel cell!
User avatar
By darwin dali
#162806
there is plenty of things a clever engineer could tinker with and come up with better solutions than the competition.
:wink:

I am willing to bet the top teams will end up with the same solution or will adapt their solution to follow the best practical solution within a matter of races. We'll see who does what next season! I simply believe that the refuelling ban won't make a real difference!

From my calculations above teams will have to save one mile (0.75L) of fuel per every four miles to avoid installing a bigger fuel cell!

Don't forget, the teams won't have the low fuel stint option anymore, so they will have to cope with a heavier car becoming lighter over the race distance no matter what. Are you going to optimize/build the car for early, heavy or for late, light? Are you planning for multiple tire changes (or are forced to) or conservative one pitstop strategy? Drivers in your line-up and their abilities and character may have a big influence on the route a team goes.
User avatar
By myownalias
#162810
there is plenty of things a clever engineer could tinker with and come up with better solutions than the competition.
:wink:

I am willing to bet the top teams will end up with the same solution or will adapt their solution to follow the best practical solution within a matter of races. We'll see who does what next season! I simply believe that the refuelling ban won't make a real difference!

From my calculations above teams will have to save one mile (0.75L) of fuel per every four miles to avoid installing a bigger fuel cell!

Don't forget, the teams won't have the low fuel stint option anymore, so they will have to cope with a heavier car becoming lighter over the race distance no matter what. Are you going to optimize/build the car for early, heavy or for late, light? Are you planning for multiple tire changes (or are forced to) or conservative one pitstop strategy? Drivers in your line-up and their abilities and character may have a big influence on the route a team goes.

I'm not suggesting strategy will become redundant, I agree that there will be strategy but no more than we have under the current rules. Which ultimately will lead to the same situation as this season, more processional racing, maybe we'll see more tank-slappers in early season as drivers get used to driving with 200 - 240 litres of fuel onboard!
User avatar
By darwin dali
#162812
there is plenty of things a clever engineer could tinker with and come up with better solutions than the competition.
:wink:

I am willing to bet the top teams will end up with the same solution or will adapt their solution to follow the best practical solution within a matter of races. We'll see who does what next season! I simply believe that the refuelling ban won't make a real difference!

From my calculations above teams will have to save one mile (0.75L) of fuel per every four miles to avoid installing a bigger fuel cell!

Don't forget, the teams won't have the low fuel stint option anymore, so they will have to cope with a heavier car becoming lighter over the race distance no matter what. Are you going to optimize/build the car for early, heavy or for late, light? Are you planning for multiple tire changes (or are forced to) or conservative one pitstop strategy? Drivers in your line-up and their abilities and character may have a big influence on the route a team goes.

I'm not suggesting strategy will become redundant, I agree that there will be strategy but no more than we have under the current rules. Which ultimately will lead to the same situation as this season, more processional racing, maybe we'll see more tank-slappers in early season as drivers get used to driving with 200 - 240 litres of fuel onboard!

I think it's not just strategy. It's fundamentals that need to be decided early on in the car design. Some teams may get it wrong, others hit the sweet spot right away - this will then impact the season and the car development down the road. If you're fortunate enough to have a perfect car at the beginning like Brawn had this season, you can afford putting your money somewhere else than the rest of the teams who need to catch up.
User avatar
By scotty
#164345
What is less well known, though, is that the car is, in the words of my source, "a botch job".

It was designed for a Honda engine, and it was not until December that the team knew they would be using a Mercedes. That necessitated some pretty crude changes.

"The chassis had the back six inches cut off to fit the engine in - the sort of thing you wouldn't normally do even with a test car," says my source. "And the gearbox was in the wrong place because the crank-centre height is different. There's a massive amount of compromise in the cars."

Those compromises introduced a significant performance deficit into the Brawn car, but it raced like that all year.

That is because the lead time on making a new chassis is several months, and at the time the team would have had to make the decision - in April - the car was dominating.

By the time it had dropped off the pace, and it was obvious the team needed the extra speed that would come with a bespoke chassis and improved weight distribution, it was too late to commission a new design.

Just as incredibly the team, tight on budget, made only three chassis all year - one for Button, one for Rubens Barrichello, and a spare - when a big-money outfit such as McLaren will typically make seven or eight.


:eek:
User avatar
By 7UpJordan
#164347
Just as I suspected the car having been designed for the Honda engine originally almost came back round to bite the team in the bum.
By Gaz
#164350
Sorry Scotty don't buy it.

The tight budget that saw Honda build 3 different cars and then test them all in the wind tunnel and choose the best. Also i've read that Brawn said the engine swoop was easy since the engines are very simlar
User avatar
By scotty
#164351
Sorry Scotty don't buy it.

The tight budget that saw Honda build 3 different cars and then test them all in the wind tunnel and choose the best. Also i've read that Brawn said the engine swoop was easy since the engines are very simlar


Even if that were true then it's still not as ideal as it could be. What i found most impressive was that each driver used the same chassis all season!
User avatar
By McLaren Fan
#164352
Sorry Scotty don't buy it.

The tight budget that saw Honda build 3 different cars and then test them all in the wind tunnel and choose the best. Also i've read that Brawn said the engine swoop was easy since the engines are very simlar

And the 150 million handshake Brawn got from Honda.
Last edited by McLaren Fan on 19 Oct 09, 22:43, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By darwin dali
#164354
Sorry Scotty don't buy it.

The tight budget that saw Honda build 3 different cars and then test them all in the wind tunnel and choose the best. Also i've read that Brawn said the engine swoop was easy since the engines are very simlar

And the 150 million handshake Brawn got from Brawn.

Huh?
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