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[FerrariFan63]

FerrariFan based on what you have said, do you not feel Ferrari should of been banned for their actions in France 08

Surely that was Much more dangours than what Renault did today.

Loose wheels are demonstrably a very considerable danger factor in modern racing. We have the example of Surtees. We have the marshall who was killed by a loose wheel at the Australian Grand Prix some years ago. We have the three spectators who were killed by a loose wheel at Indy in 1999. Can you please explain to me how what Ferrari did in France 08 was "much more dangerous" than what Renault did today.

Clearly there is a continuum of risk, from an end-plate flapping around, where the risk is comparatively small. All the way up to a loose wheel likely to come off, which is pretty much as dangerous as it gets in modern F1. It's not just a matter of whether there is a loose part, but the potential for danger should it come off.

And clearly the marshalls at France '08 must have agreed that Kimi's car did not pose an excessive risk, or they would have black flagged him. That doesn't prove a lack of danger as marshalls do not always get it right. But I don't remember outraged calls for Kimi to be black flagged. And I don't remember anything like the degree of risk that we saw today. So, no, I don't believe that what Ferrari did is much more dangerous. You've got to think of all the deaths from loose wheels.

There. I've played your "deflect the criticism to Ferrari, no matter how tenuous" game, but I'm not going to continue with it.

[FerrariFan63]

[
yeh but your being petty here.

i mean its not like they stood in the pits for a few mins debating to f*** alonso race over.

They coudn't of had alonso stop in the pit lane could they? the only thing they could of done to ensure alonso keep racing is it hope it stayed on and pitted him.

Yes they could. If the car wasn't in a safe state, keeping him in the pitlane was an entirely sensible thing to do. Lots of cars have remained in the pitlane for long periods of time while work was done on them.

and f1 teams are compative beast they don't roll over and die if they can help it.

They very much should roll over and die if the alternative is sending out a car which is in a dangerous state. Sauber years ago took both of their cars out of a race because they had doubts about their rear wings. Right thing to do and they were praised for it.

Ferrrari, Mclaren, Williams ANY OTHER team would of done the same thing.

So says you. I don't agree. But one thing's for sure. Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Renault, and other teams are much less likely to send cars out in a dangerous state after this penalty. That's the purpose of penalties, to discourage unacceptable behaviour.

[Kimi_Hamilton]

I heard about this during the highlights on the red button, and right away thought the FIA actually made the right decision, shock I know.

I came here and expected this thread to be fully behind the decision, and wow, I'm pretty taken a back by the amount of you guys defending Renault. It doesn't matter what team it was, I'm not biased, I'd always back it, especially if the team sent that car out knowing of the fault.

We can spend forever arguing about past events, and team's that should have been penilised way back when, but in light of the 2 freak accident's over the past few days, this should not have happend if indeed the team did know about this fault. If they didn't know, then fair play, but I think the FIA have evidence to suggest they did.

As much as we are all fans of F1, I'm sure we can all agree that driver safety is the most important thing, and it is good to see they are stepping up.

A race ban means nothing compared to safety, think about it.

[Gaz]

FerrariFan based on what you have said, do you not feel Ferrari should of been banned for their actions in France 08

Surely that was Much more dangours than what Renault did today.

Loose wheels are demonstrably a very considerable danger factor in modern racing. We have the example of Surtees. We have the marshall who was killed by a loose wheel at the Australian Grand Prix some years ago. We have the three spectators who were killed by a loose wheel at Indy in 1999. Can you please explain to me how what Ferrari did in France 08 was "much more dangerous" than what Renault did today.

Clearly there is a continuum of risk, from an end-plate flapping around, where the risk is comparatively small. All the way up to a loose wheel likely to come off, which is pretty much as dangerous as it gets in modern F1. It's not just a matter of whether there is a loose part, but the potential for danger should it come off.

And clearly the marshalls at France '08 must have agreed that Kimi's car did not pose an excessive risk, or they would have black flagged him. That doesn't prove a lack of danger as marshalls do not always get it right. But I don't remember outraged calls for Kimi to be black flagged. And I don't remember anything like the degree of risk that we saw today. So, no, I don't believe that what Ferrari did is much more dangerous. You've got to think of all the deaths from loose wheels.

There. I've played your "deflect the criticism to Ferrari, no matter how tenuous" game, but I'm not going to continue with it.

No i'm not playing that Game.

I'm saying somthing happned after Ferrari looked at the part in question and choose to let him go.

Renault didn't have that option they must of thought it would stay on and told alonso to tiptoe around to the pits.

It was dangerous but like i said its a sport and people take risks

[FerrariFan63]

No i'm not playing that Game.

I'm saying somthing happned after Ferrari looked at the part in question and choose to let him go.

Renault didn't have that option they must of thought it would stay on and told alonso to tiptoe around to the pits.

It was dangerous but like i said its a sport and people take risks

It's not just a question of whether they do or don't take risks, it's about the magnitude of the risk taken. Not all risks are equal, and therefore not all risks have the same proper response. Every car that's not 100%, even if it's only a spongy brake pedal, poses an additional risk over and above a perfectly working car. But the risks due to loose wheels are huge, as shown by the number of fatal accidents caused by loose wheels. Which is what makes the difference in this case.

[The-Stig]

Suspending Renault is a bit harsh, i think they should only have been given a fine.

[Johann]

My personal view of the incident is that Renault should have told Alonso to pull over when the wheel cover and, what I assumed at the time to be, the wheel nut departed the car at turn 5. I watched the incident as it happened on television and my thoughts then were "that might just have been the wheel nut, time to consider getting out of the way." Now, it says in the FIA statement that "a heavy car part" was lost at turn 5 which might mean the wheel cover plus the wheel nut.

Now, if what was lost really was the wheel nut then I think that Renault will not have much of a leg to stand on. To the best of my knowledge, what is sent to the international TV teams is also sent to the pits, so they should have been able to see the wheel nut/cover depart the car. To continue at that point is simply reckless.

I also believe that they want to make an example concerning safety, pointing out to the teams that there is a limit that they cannot cross and that the FIA will come down like a ton of bricks on anybody that dares to cross it. Now, we have to all admit that most fines are nothing compared to missing a race. The problem might just be that a monetary fines are difficult to set at the amount that is going to hurt each team equally. Ferrari or McLaren might well shrug off a fine that could cripple Force India. On the other hand missing a race has the appearance of hurting each team equally, or so the FIA hopes. They want the punishment to be extremely harsh so that nobody will dare do it again. Losing 10 grid spots and paying a fine might not be enough to get the message across.

Let us be honest, even if the fine is 100k €, that is something a major team can fork out without too much of a problem and might just be willing to wager on the chance that the car gets back to the box if something big, like the championship, is at stake.

[EwanM]

At the end of the day who loses out the most? The spectator.
Formula One needs to get its head out of its own arsecheeks and start looking at the big picture. Attendance is down, and I doubt it'll be very high if there is no Alonso in Spain.

[darwin dali]

At the end of the day who loses out the most? The spectator.
Formula One needs to get its head out of its own arsecheeks and start looking at the big picture. Attendance is down, and I doubt it'll be very high if there is no Alonso in Spain.

FA in the second Ferrari would solve this problem - BE and FB will have a money talk and then Ferrari will pay up.

[The-Stig]

They want the punishment to be extremely harsh so that nobody will dare do it again. Losing 10 grid spots and paying a fine might not be enough to get the message across.

you make It sound as If they did it on purpose.

[Hexagram]

At the end of the day who loses out the most? The spectator.
Formula One needs to get its head out of its own arsecheeks and start looking at the big picture. Attendance is down, and I doubt it'll be very high if there is no Alonso in Spain.

Yup. Only 30% of the tickets have sold.

If Renault are not present at the next grandprix I wont be watching it. F1 this season has treated its fans like s**t. Were completely taken for granted and I'm sick of it.

[The-Stig]

At the end of the day who loses out the most? The spectator.
Formula One needs to get its head out of its own arsecheeks and start looking at the big picture. Attendance is down, and I doubt it'll be very high if there is no Alonso in Spain.

Yup. Only 30% of the tickets have sold.

If Renault are not present at the next grandprix I wont be watching it. F1 this season has treated its fans like s**t. Were completely taken for granted and I'm sick of it.

very good point. I wouldn't go to the Australian Grand Prix It Webber wasn't driving.

[Johann]

They want the punishment to be extremely harsh so that nobody will dare do it again. Losing 10 grid spots and paying a fine might not be enough to get the message across.

you make It sound as If they did it on purpose.

Well, the FIA seems to think (as do I) that Renault took the risk of the wheel coming off knowingly, so yes, the FIA thinks that Renault took that risk "on purpose."

You forget that it is not the fact that the wheel came off that is the problem, it is that the FIA thinks that Renault knew that the wheel was very likely to come off that is the problem. The FIA thinks that Renault decided to put the safety of others at risk in an attempt to get the car back to the pit.

[bud]

is this a knee jerk punishment? without recent events would Renault have been banned?

[Johann]

is this a knee jerk punishment? without recent events would Renault have been banned?

I think that it played a part, however you have to admit that it looks bad for Renault to lose a wheel during this weekend with all that happened.