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User avatar
By bud
#69750
what and Schumacher could win in a midfield car?


He won in 1994 in a Benetton-Ford. That was quite inferior to the Williams-Renault of Damon Hill.


it wasnt inferior at all! it had superior illegal traction control :hehe: but that wasnt a midfield car either
User avatar
By AKR
#69771
what and Schumacher could win in a midfield car?


He won in 1994 in a Benetton-Ford. That was quite inferior to the Williams-Renault of Damon Hill.


it wasnt inferior at all! it had superior illegal traction control :hehe: but that wasnt a midfield car either


It wasn't as good as what Ferrari and McLaren are now. The Benetton of that time was more like BMW-Sauber is now. Just have a good look. Where was Schumacher's team mate of 1994 to ever be seen? Damon Hill's team was up there most of the time. David Coulthard was it not? Benetton-Ford was up there because of Schumacher. The Ford V8 that powered it was inderior by far to the Renault V10 that powered Williams. Also not surprising Williams won the constructors championship easily that year. Given Benetton were actually crap and there was only 1 Schumacher and not 2, the constructors title was just not possible. So now if Lewis Hamilton were instead driving for BMW-Sauber instead of McLaren or even Ferrari, then he would probably be crap. Robert Kubica who is as far as I am concerned better than Lewis Hamilton should beat him virtually every race if both were at BMW. And dare I say it, if Robert Kubica were in Lewis Hamilton's McLaren seat instead, he would long be 2008 world champion by now.
User avatar
By AKR
#69772
In Short There is no way in hell they would get rid of a brand name that has been around since 1963 and all your doing by going on about this is making your self look more and more pathetic because you have a hatred and not a respect for a team in F1.


Mercedes has been in Grand Prix racing since the 1930s. (Or maybe even the 1920s). The "Silver Arrows" which is what McLaren-Mercedes is commonly referred to as is something that dates back to Mercedes-Benz since at least the 1930s. Mercedes' racing history is greater and older than that of Ferrari. I would rather see Mercedes out there and wont mind them winning knowing what rich history they have, than seeing McLaren. Just a personal choice. The way it can be is it is either "McLaren" or "Mercedes-Benz". One or the other. It cant be both as for that to happen, Mercedes would have to sell off their full share of McLaren. So if it has to be one of them, then I prefer it to be Mercedes-Benz as their history is even richer and greater than McLaren and have been involved in GP racing for even longer than Ferrari. Maybe they can just change the names around and call it a Mercedes-McLaren instead. Similar to what we see with BMW-Sauber. That way the McLaren name would be retained but the car would then be a true "Silver Arrows", just like it should be now. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
User avatar
By KyrosV
#69774
I think one day Mercedes are going to want to have there own works team and if they cant buy out mclaren then they will have to start there own team or buy another and sell the 40% share in mclaren. This will become more so when BMW become regular championship winners, the Mercedes brand is going to have to compete and get there brand out more. Mclaren will still be about but maybe not with Mercedes.

Its tricky but it could happen...
User avatar
By KyrosV
#69775
2007:
best car: Mclaren
winning driver: Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari

2006:
best car: Ferrari
winning Driver: Fernando Alonso Renault

2005:
best car: Mclaren
winning car: Fernando Alonso Renault

1994:
Best Car: Williams
winning Driver: Michael Schumacher

surely the mark of a great champion is winning in the second best car. All these drivers started thier trade in smaller teams (Sauber, Minardi, Jordan) and became champions. Lewis hamilton on the other hand has always had superior equipment his whole racing life and is the same kind of manufactured pap you find on x-Factor. So you would expect him to win the same as you would chelsea to win when that russian guy took over. If he was in a torro rosso of renault this year, I dont think we would see him perform like Fernando or seb this year. Its like Rocky IV against Ivan Drago. Rocky wins! thats why I always like the drivers that work for there achievment and not have it given on a plate.
User avatar
By racechick
#69776
Last year over the year the McLaren and Ferrari were pretty equal.

The 94 win for Schumacher should have read Damon Hill. He cheated that win.

Not sure about the others, cant remember, you may be right.

There are lots of other things that make a great champion, winning in an inferior car is but one of them.
User avatar
By EwanM
#69779
Last year over the year the McLaren and Ferrari were pretty equal.

The 94 win for Schumacher should have read Damon Hill. He cheated that win.

Not sure about the others, cant remember, you may be right.

There are lots of other things that make a great champion, winning in an inferior car is but one of them.


Absolute rubbish, if you are talking about the Adelaide incident. And i'm not even a Schumacher fan!
Hill was far too eager to get past Schumacher, he should have waited to make his move. He even admitted that himself.
Schumacher had just went off the track.
User avatar
By racechick
#69781
Last year over the year the McLaren and Ferrari were pretty equal.

The 94 win for Schumacher should have read Damon Hill. He cheated that win.

Not sure about the others, cant remember, you may be right.

There are lots of other things that make a great champion, winning in an inferior car is but one of them.


Absolute rubbish, if you are talking about the Adelaide incident. And i'm not even a Schumacher fan!
Hill was far too eager to get past Schumacher, he should have waited to make his move. He even admitted that himself.
Schumacher had just went off the track.


Oh come on!! Schumacher went off and stuffed it in the wall, Damon went passed and he turned into him with his terminally damaged car. Of course Damon should have waited, thats easy in hindsight:
1) He didnt know Schumacher was terminally damaged because he was off round a corner, you dont sit there debating the issue in a title deciding race
2) One would not be expecting a proffessional F1 driver to turn his damaged car into the side of you!!!
User avatar
By EwanM
#69782
Whatever happened, there was a few iffy decisions that led to Schumacher's 2 race ban. He was like Hamilton is today in the FIA's eyes back then.
Silverstone - he was in the wrong
But there was always something funny about what happened in Spa.
Mosley and co had always been out to get Schumacher since he had begun his career.

And yeah I do admit that Adelaide was a bit iffy - but Schumacher wasn't really someone id have trusted. Hill should have waited :(
User avatar
By bud
#69783
2007:
best car: Mclaren
winning driver: Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari

2006:
best car: Ferrari
winning Driver: Fernando Alonso Renault

2005:
best car: Mclaren
winning car: Fernando Alonso Renault

1994:
Best Car: Williams
winning Driver: Michael Schumacher

surely the mark of a great champion is winning in the second best car. All these drivers started thier trade in smaller teams (Sauber, Minardi, Jordan) and became champions. Lewis hamilton on the other hand has always had superior equipment his whole racing life and is the same kind of manufactured pap you find on x-Factor. So you would expect him to win the same as you would chelsea to win when that russian guy took over. If he was in a torro rosso of renault this year, I dont think we would see him perform like Fernando or seb this year. Its like Rocky IV against Ivan Drago. Rocky wins! thats why I always like the drivers that work for there achievment and not have it given on a plate.


you cant just label one car the best over the next! example being 07 where some tracks McLaren were better while others Ferrari was. same for 06 where the start of the year Renault were the best car and it looked like a cake walk for Fernando then Ferrari made a mid season surge and had the upper hand for half the year!

And to label Lewis as always having the best equipment?? have you followed him since he was 8? You think Fernando Alonso didnt have the best equipment in Karting?
im tired of hearing this excuse from people, no matter how many doors are opened for a young racer all that really counts is having TALENT. thats what gets you places! you cannot manufacture that!

and AKR i guarantee that Schumacher were in this years BMW Sauber he would not be able to win the title! So to use that as a comparison to his Benetton of 94 is not accurate if you ask me!

ahh the old 94 incident in Adelaide, I was at that GP and its what made me dislike Schumacher in all honesty! being a Senna fan i didnt really care who won but that was a blatant turn in
User avatar
By bud
#69786
I think one day Mercedes are going to want to have there own works team and if they cant buy out mclaren then they will have to start there own team or buy another and sell the 40% share in mclaren. This will become more so when BMW become regular championship winners, the Mercedes brand is going to have to compete and get there brand out more. Mclaren will still be about but maybe not with Mercedes.

Its tricky but it could happen...


BMW-SAUBER you mean? im sure they wont mind being McLaren Mercedes
User avatar
By EwanM
#69787
I think one day Mercedes are going to want to have there own works team and if they cant buy out mclaren then they will have to start there own team or buy another and sell the 40% share in mclaren. This will become more so when BMW become regular championship winners, the Mercedes brand is going to have to compete and get there brand out more. Mclaren will still be about but maybe not with Mercedes.

Its tricky but it could happen...


BMW-SAUBER you mean? im sure they wont mind being McLaren Mercedes


Mercedes already own a big enough share in the company - why imbalance what already sits perfectly?
By Gaz
#69788
In Short There is no way in hell they would get rid of a brand name that has been around since 1963 and all your doing by going on about this is making your self look more and more pathetic because you have a hatred and not a respect for a team in F1.


Mercedes has been in Grand Prix racing since the 1930s. (Or maybe even the 1920s). The "Silver Arrows" which is what McLaren-Mercedes is commonly referred to as is something that dates back to Mercedes-Benz since at least the 1930s. Mercedes' racing history is greater and older than that of Ferrari. I would rather see Mercedes out there and wont mind them winning knowing what rich history they have, than seeing McLaren. Just a personal choice. The way it can be is it is either "McLaren" or "Mercedes-Benz". One or the other. It cant be both as for that to happen, Mercedes would have to sell off their full share of McLaren. So if it has to be one of them, then I prefer it to be Mercedes-Benz as their history is even richer and greater than McLaren and have been involved in GP racing for even longer than Ferrari. Maybe they can just change the names around and call it a Mercedes-McLaren instead. Similar to what we see with BMW-Sauber. That way the McLaren name would be retained but the car would then be a true "Silver Arrows", just like it should be now. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:



Mercades may have a history in GP racing but not in F1 only 2 years infact 54 and 55.

IN GP racing they only compted from 34 - 39 so they have 7 years in GP/F1 compared to Mclarens 45 years. Get the Point?

The fact is Mclaren have been in F1 since the 60's that's bloody long time.

When Project 4 merged with Mclaren it didn't get renamed did it? so there's little point in going on about like your doing bec

Its a great partnership and Merc make great engines but the car is a Mclaren and always will be.

Mercedes considered comming back to F1 with Schui and they opted against it and became a engine supplier.

Don't get confused with Sauber-BWM since that was a takover where as Merc have just invested heavily in Mclaren.

Also you mention Silver Arrows alot you do realise that that was just the colour of the country in GP racing in the 30's British cars were British Racing Green, Italian Cars - Red, French Blue.

However the only reason Mclaren choose to have silver cars is because its very effective to show the sponsor's hence why they have the luminous "rocket red" because they are sponsor paid and driven.

Regardless there's little point in you keep going on about this AKR because honestly its not going to happen.
#69795
It wasn't as good as what Ferrari and McLaren are now. The Benetton of that time was more like BMW-Sauber is now. Just have a good look. Where was Schumacher's team mate of 1994 to ever be seen? Damon Hill's team was up there most of the time. David Coulthard was it not? Benetton-Ford was up there because of Schumacher. The Ford V8 that powered it was inderior by far to the Renault V10 that powered Williams. Also not surprising Williams won the constructors championship easily that year. Given Benetton were actually crap and there was only 1 Schumacher and not 2, the constructors title was just not possible. So now if Lewis Hamilton were instead driving for BMW-Sauber instead of McLaren or even Ferrari, then he would probably be crap. Robert Kubica who is as far as I am concerned better than Lewis Hamilton should beat him virtually every race if both were at BMW. And dare I say it, if Robert Kubica were in Lewis Hamilton's McLaren seat instead, he would long be 2008 world champion by now.

We've been here before, Kiki. The B194 was not inferior to the FW16 at all. The FW16 started off as a very difficult car to drive. Its mechanical grip was very poor in comparison to the Benetton B194 and there were several aerodynamic problems with the car: the low nose design was outdated compared to Benetton's design and the rear end of the car was very skittish (which probably contributed towards Senna's fatal accident). The B194 certainly had traction control and was very likely to have had launch control as well. Williams also went backwards for a time with the development of the car. Before the San Marino Grand Prix, new parts were put onto the car and Senna was very critical of them. It was not until the second half of the season that Williams got on top of the car's flaws. Only Senna's brilliance made the car look in half decent at the start of he season.
Absolute rubbish, if you are talking about the Adelaide incident. And i'm not even a Schumacher fan!
Hill was far too eager to get past Schumacher, he should have waited to make his move. He even admitted that himself.
Schumacher had just went off the track.

What! Schumacher deliberately turned his car into Hill's Williams. There can be no excuse for this absolutely disgusting piece of driving from Schumacher. :thumbdown:
2007:
best car: Mclaren
winning driver: Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari

2006:
best car: Ferrari
winning Driver: Fernando Alonso Renault

2005:
best car: Mclaren
winning car: Fernando Alonso Renault

1994:
Best Car: Williams
winning Driver: Michael Schumacher

All of this sounds very nice, but if you scratch below the surface you find your case deeply flawed. At the start of the 2006 season, the Renault was vastly superior to the Ferrari. It was not until the second half of the season that Ferrari's development muscle kicked into life. When it did, Alonso was left in the dust of Schumacher. In fact, Schumacher did will to remain in contention for the title with such mediocre equipment. In 2005, the McLaren was easily the fastest car on the track, but was very unreliable. Raikkonen would smoke the entire grid - Alonso included - and then his car itself would go up in smoke. You could make a very compelling argument that Alonso was the second-best driver in each of his championship-winning seasons. For an analysis of 1994, see above. To me, the seasons that you have brought into discussion suggest that Schumacher was a very good driver but that Alonso was not quite so sharp.
Whatever happened, there was a few iffy decisions that led to Schumacher's 2 race ban. He was like Hamilton is today in the FIA's eyes back then.
Silverstone - he was in the wrong
But there was always something funny about what happened in Spa.
Mosley and co had always been out to get Schumacher since he had begun his career.

And yeah I do admit that Adelaide was a bit iffy - but Schumacher wasn't really someone id have trusted. Hill should have waited :(


I shall talk about the 1994 British Grand Prix first. As you probably know, Schumacher was to be penalised for overtaking Hill on the formation lap. Schumacher, for some reason or other, seemed to ignore this penalty. Not before long, marshals were waving the black flag at him. Again, Schumacher seemed to ignore them. Benetton claimed that they had some communication difficulties with the stewards and were not aware that Schumacher was to be penalised. On television, members of the Benetton team were remonstrating with the officials for some reason or other. Soon after, Schumacher came into the pits for a stop-go penalty. On the face of things, it would look like Benetton did not get the message that Schumacher was being penalised, but later realised he was getting black-flagged and told him to stay out whilst they sorted out the problem. There have been numerous communication difficulties with the stewards anyway, so it's not unbelievable that there was some communication breakdown between they and Benetton. The stewards are basically a law unto themselves and the FIA would, of course, want to save face, so it's no surprise really that Benetton were said be to wrong and penalised. I don't, however, believe that the punishment was given to favour Hill's title bid. At this stage, he was a million miles behind Schumacher in the title race. Hill only got back into the title because of Schumacher's subsequent punishments. I also don't think that the stewards penalised Schumacher to give Hill a chance of winning the British Grand Prix. Schumacher did wrong, so had to be penalised no matter what track he was at. The problem was either Benetton chancing their arm or a communication breakdown between the team and stewards. Personally speaking, I think it was a bit of both. Later in the season, Benetton lost their appeal against the disqualification and the FIA also decided to ban Schumacher for two races. This is where I think Schumacher was treated a little harshly. First, on the face of things, it seemed that Benetton's pitwall crew stuffed up, so it was unfair to specifically target the driver for this. Second, Schumacher had already been rightly disqualified from the British Grand Prix for his offence, so a single-race ban or a pretty severe grid penalty would have been more fair. I'm also not sure, however,that this was done to help Hill's title bid. If the FIA or anybody else really wanted to scupper Schumacher's title chances or make the championship battle more exciting, they could have disqualified Benetton completely from both championships or gave them a nasty punishment for running launch control and almost certainly some form of traction control. Also, in the mid-1990s, the FIA often gave out heavy-handed penalties and Schumacher's sin, in their eyes, was pretty bad - exactly the sort of thing they clamped down on. I'll concede, though, that the FIA also have form in making decisions to spice up the end of a championship.

The second penalty of the season was also fairly controversial. Schumacher was disqualified because the skidblock was worn out too much. Benetton claimed this was because of accident or something Schumacher had during the race. The FIA didn't buy the story and disqualified him. To be honest, I think the FIA were probably right, for you would expect to be able to tell the difference between a skidblock that was intentionally too small or had been worn out throughout the race and one that had been damaged in an accident.

Overall, I would say Schumacher was very lucky. The Benetton did have some illegal electronic aids on it - the dogs on the street knew it, but it was tough to prove - so he could well have been excluded from the championship or severely penalised if the FIA really wanted to favour Hill. Furthermore, Schumacher's stunt in Adelaide was worthy of disqualification or exclusion from the championship (like what happened in 1997), so, again, the FIA could done that against Schumacher to favour Hill. As separate issues, however, the two-race ban was a little draconian, but the disqualification he incurred in Belgium was fair enough.
User avatar
By EwanM
#69799
I do agree with you Mclaren fan, over 1994 - although I do believe that the 2 race ban was unjustified. I just think that Hill cost himself the title in 1994.

Speaking of Seasons - there was no argument that Alonso didn't deserve his 2 world titles.
Yes in 2006 the Renault was far superior till the mid season, but Ferrari's charge and the loss of the mass damper system heavily hit the team.
Drives like in Turkey only showed that Alonso had a right to the title.
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