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[myownalias]

/makes sharp left turn... back on topic...

It's accepted by all that Brawn's success in early season was a direct result of Honda's cash injection before deciding to pull the plug. Next year we don't know how Brawn will fair given that there is no rule changes on the cards so I expect McLaren and Ferrari to be competitive out of the box. I believe that BrawnGP will be in the mix along with Red Bull and possibly Renault but wins may be elusive if Ferrari and McLaren live upto their potential. We don't know the extent that Mercedes will invest in Brawn, it may be that Brawn simply gets factory engine support, I'm not sure that Ross Brawn will want to give up total control of his team to Mercedes any more than Ron Dennis did. I have a feeling that Brawn will be best of the rest next season behind McLaren and Ferrari, maybe snatching the occasional podium or maybe a win or two if other's trip over themselves.

As I've pointed out repeatedly: there ARE rule changes coming next year, the most important one being the refueling ban, which will have quite an impact on car design, tire and fuel management, race strategy, etc.

But the changes are minor compared to the raft of changes that happened this season which allowed for Brawn to be so dominant in the first half of the season. I don't believe that the refuelling ban will be a big difference, fuel cell design will be very similar, flat as possible to distribute the weight as evenly as possible over the car. And fuel cells won't have to be that much bigger as the some existing fuel cells can hold as much as 3/4 race distance fuel load already. Sure it may effect strategy given that teams won't have to stop at all if they have a car that is good at preserving tyres. I don't believe there is much to gain from fuel cell design!

[Tony_sa]

/makes sharp left turn... back on topic...

It's accepted by all that Brawn's success in early season was a direct result of Honda's cash injection before deciding to pull the plug. Next year we don't know how Brawn will fair given that there is no rule changes on the cards so I expect McLaren and Ferrari to be competitive out of the box. I believe that BrawnGP will be in the mix along with Red Bull and possibly Renault but wins may be elusive if Ferrari and McLaren live upto their potential. We don't know the extent that Mercedes will invest in Brawn, it may be that Brawn simply gets factory engine support, I'm not sure that Ross Brawn will want to give up total control of his team to Mercedes any more than Ron Dennis did. I have a feeling that Brawn will be best of the rest next season behind McLaren and Ferrari, maybe snatching the occasional podium or maybe a win or two if other's trip over themselves.

As I've pointed out repeatedly: there ARE rule changes coming next year, the most important one being the refueling ban, which will have quite an impact on car design, tire and fuel management, race strategy, etc.

But the changes are minor compared to the raft of changes that happened this season which allowed for Brawn to be so dominant in the first half of the season. I don't believe that the refuelling ban will be a big difference, fuel cell design will be very similar, flat as possible to distribute the weight as evenly as possible over the car. And fuel cells won't have to be that much bigger as the some existing fuel cells can hold as much as 3/4 race distance fuel load already. Sure it may effect strategy given that teams won't have to stop at all if they have a car that is good at preserving tyres. I don't believe there is much to gain from fuel cell design!

Far from wanting to agree with you I clearly have no choice. far as i am concerned no refueling will really mean no strategy whatsoever. teams that are better on their tyres will no doubt have the advantage here since the heavier weight of the fuel will help getting heat in the tyres. you think this will benefit a outfit like Brawn ?

[darwin dali]

/makes sharp left turn... back on topic...

It's accepted by all that Brawn's success in early season was a direct result of Honda's cash injection before deciding to pull the plug. Next year we don't know how Brawn will fair given that there is no rule changes on the cards so I expect McLaren and Ferrari to be competitive out of the box. I believe that BrawnGP will be in the mix along with Red Bull and possibly Renault but wins may be elusive if Ferrari and McLaren live upto their potential. We don't know the extent that Mercedes will invest in Brawn, it may be that Brawn simply gets factory engine support, I'm not sure that Ross Brawn will want to give up total control of his team to Mercedes any more than Ron Dennis did. I have a feeling that Brawn will be best of the rest next season behind McLaren and Ferrari, maybe snatching the occasional podium or maybe a win or two if other's trip over themselves.

As I've pointed out repeatedly: there ARE rule changes coming next year, the most important one being the refueling ban, which will have quite an impact on car design, tire and fuel management, race strategy, etc.

But the changes are minor compared to the raft of changes that happened this season which allowed for Brawn to be so dominant in the first half of the season. I don't believe that the refuelling ban will be a big difference, fuel cell design will be very similar, flat as possible to distribute the weight as evenly as possible over the car. And fuel cells won't have to be that much bigger as the some existing fuel cells can hold as much as 3/4 race distance fuel load already. Sure it may effect strategy given that teams won't have to stop at all if they have a car that is good at preserving tyres. I don't believe there is much to gain from fuel cell design!

Weight distribution, more weight on the tires, especially during the first third of the race, change in car behavior over the race distance with the weight going down, more load on the engine with heavier car - there is plenty of things a clever engineer could tinker with and come up with better solutions than the competition.
At any rate, to call it a year of no rule changes is simply not the case.

[scotty]

Far from wanting to agree with you I clearly have no choice. far as i am concerned no refueling will really mean no strategy whatsoever. teams that are better on their tyres will no doubt have the advantage here since the heavier weight of the fuel will help getting heat in the tyres. you think this will benefit a outfit like Brawn ?

Brawn have been by far the easiest on their tyres this year, so make of that what you will... On the subject of strategy next year, there will definitely still be a strategy present with regard to tyre stops - some teams may risk stopping one less time than others, but without the penalty of carrying more fuel weight around it could lead to very close situations where one car is hunting down another using their fresher tyres. Don't underestimate the impact this whole no-refuelling rule will have!

[Jabberwocky]

but just the extra size of the fuel tank for next year is going to cause a big host of issues.

A cars wheel base is going to get longer for a start.
the distance between the front wing and front wheel is going to change which means things like the front wing tips are going to have to change.

If the fuel tank is made as wide as possible then that is going to mean less room for the radiators, so either you make the side pods come further forward or you don't undercut them as much.

The bigger fuel tank is going to mean the center of gravity of the car is going to get higher. so that will cause all sorts of handling issues at different fuel loads.

The bigger fuel tank might also mean that things like the oil tank etc need to be moved to keep the wheel base as short as possible. where is that gonna go in the car?

Maybe the gearbox and rear crash structure will be redesigned to keep the wheel base shorter as well.

[texasmr2]

Far as i am concerned no refueling will really mean no strategy whatsoever. teams that are better on their tyres will no doubt have the advantage here since the heavier weight of the fuel will help getting heat in the tyres. you think this will benefit a outfit like Brawn ?

You are aware that there was a time in F1 history in which there was no refueling, right? Team strategy will alway's be progressing regardless of the rules setforth, I'm surprised you do not realize that .

[scotty]

Maybe the gearbox and rear crash structure will be redesigned to keep the wheel base shorter as well.

Something which will be absolutely key to get right first time - i believe there is going to be a 3 year freeze coming in on gearbox design as from next season.

[Tony_sa]

Far as i am concerned no refueling will really mean no strategy whatsoever. teams that are better on their tyres will no doubt have the advantage here since the heavier weight of the fuel will help getting heat in the tyres. you think this will benefit a outfit like Brawn ?

You are aware that there was a time in F1 history in which there was no refueling, right? Team strategy will alway's be progressing regardless of the rules setforth, I'm surprised you do not realize that .

TBH with you i didnt care much for F1 at the time. Practically the first time I will be living through it and will be honest and admit its better or not for me.

[myownalias]

Weight distribution, more weight on the tires, especially during the first third of the race, change in car behavior over the race distance with the weight going down, more load on the engine with heavier car - there is plenty of things a clever engineer could tinker with and come up with better solutions than the competition.
At any rate, to call it a year of no rule changes is simply not the case.

OK, I accept that calling it a year of no rule changes is incorrect and I stand corrected but it was a comment in relation to the dozens of major changes this season!

Does anyone know just how much bigger the fuel cell will have to be to go a whole race distance? or other options; if there is going to be a temporary suspension of the engine freeze then maybe teams will make their engine design more efficient to offset the refuelling ban, fuel cells will remain the same size while fuel economy will be improved! Yes it will probably produce slightly less power but at the same time, less fuel weight requires less power to move it.

[darwin dali]

Weight distribution, more weight on the tires, especially during the first third of the race, change in car behavior over the race distance with the weight going down, more load on the engine with heavier car - there is plenty of things a clever engineer could tinker with and come up with better solutions than the competition.
At any rate, to call it a year of no rule changes is simply not the case.

OK, I accept that calling it a year of no rule changes is incorrect and I stand corrected but it was a comment in relation to the dozens of major changes this season!

Does anyone know just how much bigger the fuel cell will have to be to go a whole race distance? or other options; if there is going to be a temporary suspension of the engine freeze then maybe teams will make their engine design more efficient to offset the refuelling ban, fuel cells will remain the same size while fuel economy will be improved! Yes it will probably produce slightly less power but at the same time, less fuel weight requires less power to move it.

They already have the capability to run an engine leaner - they sometimes do it on the fly such as "Rubens, we have to save fuel, go C-4, go C-4!"

[Tony_sa]

Weight distribution, more weight on the tires, especially during the first third of the race, change in car behavior over the race distance with the weight going down, more load on the engine with heavier car - there is plenty of things a clever engineer could tinker with and come up with better solutions than the competition.
At any rate, to call it a year of no rule changes is simply not the case.

OK, I accept that calling it a year of no rule changes is incorrect and I stand corrected but it was a comment in relation to the dozens of major changes this season!

Does anyone know just how much bigger the fuel cell will have to be to go a whole race distance? or other options; if there is going to be a temporary suspension of the engine freeze then maybe teams will make their engine design more efficient to offset the refuelling ban, fuel cells will remain the same size while fuel economy will be improved! Yes it will probably produce slightly less power but at the same time, less fuel weight requires less power to move it.

They already have the capability to run an engine leaner - they sometimes do it on the fly such as "Rubens, we have to save fuel, go C-4, go C-4!"

as long as that instruction is not followed by a huge explosion !!

[myownalias]

Weight distribution, more weight on the tires, especially during the first third of the race, change in car behavior over the race distance with the weight going down, more load on the engine with heavier car - there is plenty of things a clever engineer could tinker with and come up with better solutions than the competition.
At any rate, to call it a year of no rule changes is simply not the case.

OK, I accept that calling it a year of no rule changes is incorrect and I stand corrected but it was a comment in relation to the dozens of major changes this season!

Does anyone know just how much bigger the fuel cell will have to be to go a whole race distance? or other options; if there is going to be a temporary suspension of the engine freeze then maybe teams will make their engine design more efficient to offset the refuelling ban, fuel cells will remain the same size while fuel economy will be improved! Yes it will probably produce slightly less power but at the same time, less fuel weight requires less power to move it.

They already have the capability to run an engine leaner - they sometimes do it on the fly such as "Rubens, we have to save fuel, go C-4, go C-4!"

I've heard it mentioned; a number of teams can run to 3/4 distance on a rich fuel/air mix, if they made the engine run leaner, then fuel cells wouldn't have to be larger!

Hence nothing really changes, or at least minimal change, it'll certainly be interesting to see which way teams go; more power, bigger tank or less power, smaller tank!

[Tony_sa]

Weight distribution, more weight on the tires, especially during the first third of the race, change in car behavior over the race distance with the weight going down, more load on the engine with heavier car - there is plenty of things a clever engineer could tinker with and come up with better solutions than the competition.
At any rate, to call it a year of no rule changes is simply not the case.

OK, I accept that calling it a year of no rule changes is incorrect and I stand corrected but it was a comment in relation to the dozens of major changes this season!

Does anyone know just how much bigger the fuel cell will have to be to go a whole race distance? or other options; if there is going to be a temporary suspension of the engine freeze then maybe teams will make their engine design more efficient to offset the refuelling ban, fuel cells will remain the same size while fuel economy will be improved! Yes it will probably produce slightly less power but at the same time, less fuel weight requires less power to move it.

They already have the capability to run an engine leaner - they sometimes do it on the fly such as "Rubens, we have to save fuel, go C-4, go C-4!"

I've heard it mentioned; a number of teams can run to 3/4 distance on a rich fuel/air mix, if they made the engine run leaner, then fuel cells wouldn't have to be larger!

Hence nothing really changes, or at least minimal change, it'll certainly be interesting to see which way teams go; more power, bigger tank or less power, smaller tank!

would that not mean that a tank should at least be able to carry lil over 200Ltrs of fuel. ??

[myownalias]

would that not mean that a tank should at least be able to carry lil over 200Ltrs of fuel. ??

By my calculations (bearing in mind my maths skills are rubbish), it would take a 240 litres of fuel to take a car from start to finish based upon current fuel consumption *

A little extra would probably be added to make sure; maybe an extra six litres to cover a couple of extra laps.

* Based upon my calculation that a F1 car uses 0.75 litres of fuel per mile!

[Tony_sa]

would that not mean that a tank should at least be able to carry lil over 200Ltrs of fuel. ??

By my calculations (bearing in mind my maths skills are rubbish), it would take a 240 litres of fuel to take a car from start to finish based upon current fuel consumption *

A little extra would probably be added to make sure; maybe an extra six litres to cover a couple of extra laps.

* Based upon my calculation that a F1 car uses 0.75 litres of fuel per mile!

hmmm I worked it out in one of the races when i think 82ltrs was enough for 27 laps or something like that. I also came to at least 240.
http://www.f1technical.net/articles/19 this link i found that says they use less fuel. guess we will have to wait and see.