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[Amanda]

Yeh i agree with you about Rubens its not really totally fair of me to use that as a method of comparison.

Perhaps Massa does have more raw talent than Button, but when Massa is bad its usually very very bad i.e he dnf's or finishes well out of the points.

Also i've only see Massa do a few decent overtakes mainly based around better starts i.e Hungary 08. He can not defend well either - Germany 08.

Button can however definitely overtake but like you say he can have peaks and trough's with his pace Buttons peaks might not be as high but he's troughs aren't nearly as bad.

I think that's as close as we're going to get to agreeing

[Gaz]

Yeh i agree with you about Rubens its not really totally fair of me to use that as a method of comparison.

Perhaps Massa does have more raw talent than Button, but when Massa is bad its usually very very bad i.e he dnf's or finishes well out of the points.

Also i've only see Massa do a few decent overtakes mainly based around better starts i.e Hungary 08. He can not defend well either - Germany 08.

Button can however definitely overtake but like you say he can have peaks and trough's with his pace Buttons peaks might not be as high but he's troughs aren't nearly as bad.

I think that's as close as we're going to get to agreeing

lol it is hard to compare because of the cars being uneven we'll have to see next year i could be completely wrong if Massa beats Alonso i doubt he will though.

[Amanda]

Yeh i agree with you about Rubens its not really totally fair of me to use that as a method of comparison.

Perhaps Massa does have more raw talent than Button, but when Massa is bad its usually very very bad i.e he dnf's or finishes well out of the points.

Also i've only see Massa do a few decent overtakes mainly based around better starts i.e Hungary 08. He can not defend well either - Germany 08.

Button can however definitely overtake but like you say he can have peaks and trough's with his pace Buttons peaks might not be as high but he's troughs aren't nearly as bad.

I think that's as close as we're going to get to agreeing

lol it is hard to compare because of the cars being uneven we'll have to see next year i could be completely wrong if Massa beats Alonso i doubt he will though.

Oh I don't think he'll beat Alonso. I just think that, given equal situations, he'd easily beat Button.

[Jensonb]

I fail to see where this idea of Massa as a great of his time comes from. He's quick on his day, but he's turned in some truly abysmal races, as recently as 2008. He's made silly mistakes, completely unprompted, as recently as 2008. He was reckless but quick before he joined The Scuderia, and now he's quick sometimes, but wildly inconsistent. He in no way matches, say, Hamilton - who may be quick but inconsistent (And his inconsistency is declining with experience - what's Massa's excuse?), but tends to be less bad on his off days than Massa (See Silverstone 2008 for an example of Massa's bad days).

As for people questioning why I have Button so high, it's down to racecraft. Jenson is almighty at putting together a whole race and ensuring there are points on the board at the end of the day. He's not anywhere near the all-out quickest driver, Massa even is perhaps faster on raw pace, but his racing is truly impressive. That's also one of the things I like about him.

[Gaz]

Yeh i agree with you about Rubens its not really totally fair of me to use that as a method of comparison.

Perhaps Massa does have more raw talent than Button, but when Massa is bad its usually very very bad i.e he dnf's or finishes well out of the points.

Also i've only see Massa do a few decent overtakes mainly based around better starts i.e Hungary 08. He can not defend well either - Germany 08.

Button can however definitely overtake but like you say he can have peaks and trough's with his pace Buttons peaks might not be as high but he's troughs aren't nearly as bad.

I think that's as close as we're going to get to agreeing

lol it is hard to compare because of the cars being uneven we'll have to see next year i could be completely wrong if Massa beats Alonso i doubt he will though.

Oh I don't think he'll beat Alonso. I just think that, given equal situations, he'd easily beat Button.

Well We Might see Massa at Brawn in 2011 since i think a certain German will be Ferrari Bound if he's any good next year.

[Amanda]

I fail to see where this idea of Massa as a great of his time comes from. He's quick on his day, but he's turned in some truly abysmal races, as recently as 2008. He's made silly mistakes, completely unprompted, as recently as 2008. He was reckless but quick before he joined The Scuderia, and now he's quick sometimes, but wildly inconsistent. He in no way matches, say, Hamilton - who may be quick but inconsistent (And his inconsistency is declining with experience - what's Massa's excuse?), but tends to be less bad on his off days than Massa (See Silverstone 2008 for an example of Massa's bad days).

As for people questioning why I have Button so high, it's down to racecraft. Jenson is almighty at putting together a whole race and ensuring there are points on the board at the end of the day. He's not anywhere near the all-out quickest driver, Massa even is perhaps faster on raw pace, but his racing is truly impressive. That's also one of the things I like about him.

I think for the purposes of this ranking system the word "great" is being brandished around a little too liberally by all of us. I don't think Massa will go down as one of the "greatest" drivers of all time but I'm putting him in that category to distinguish him as one of the best on the grid. In reality, I'd only class Alonso and Hamilton as potential "greats".

[Jensonb]

I fail to see where this idea of Massa as a great of his time comes from. He's quick on his day, but he's turned in some truly abysmal races, as recently as 2008. He's made silly mistakes, completely unprompted, as recently as 2008. He was reckless but quick before he joined The Scuderia, and now he's quick sometimes, but wildly inconsistent. He in no way matches, say, Hamilton - who may be quick but inconsistent (And his inconsistency is declining with experience - what's Massa's excuse?), but tends to be less bad on his off days than Massa (See Silverstone 2008 for an example of Massa's bad days).

As for people questioning why I have Button so high, it's down to racecraft. Jenson is almighty at putting together a whole race and ensuring there are points on the board at the end of the day. He's not anywhere near the all-out quickest driver, Massa even is perhaps faster on raw pace, but his racing is truly impressive. That's also one of the things I like about him.

I think for the purposes of this ranking system the word "great" is being brandished around a little too liberally by all of us. I don't think Massa will go down as one of the "greatest" drivers of all time but I'm putting him in that category to distinguish him as one of the best on the grid. In reality, I'd only class Alonso and Hamilton as potential "greats".

That's why I said "of his time". So far only Alonso has come close to earning the distinction of an all-time great (Before you all get upset about it, I only suggest Hamilton has not because it is too soon to say - look what happened to Villeneuve)

[Gaz]

I fail to see where this idea of Massa as a great of his time comes from. He's quick on his day, but he's turned in some truly abysmal races, as recently as 2008. He's made silly mistakes, completely unprompted, as recently as 2008. He was reckless but quick before he joined The Scuderia, and now he's quick sometimes, but wildly inconsistent. He in no way matches, say, Hamilton - who may be quick but inconsistent (And his inconsistency is declining with experience - what's Massa's excuse?), but tends to be less bad on his off days than Massa (See Silverstone 2008 for an example of Massa's bad days).

As for people questioning why I have Button so high, it's down to racecraft. Jenson is almighty at putting together a whole race and ensuring there are points on the board at the end of the day. He's not anywhere near the all-out quickest driver, Massa even is perhaps faster on raw pace, but his racing is truly impressive. That's also one of the things I like about him.

I think for the purposes of this ranking system the word "great" is being brandished around a little too liberally by all of us. I don't think Massa will go down as one of the "greatest" drivers of all time but I'm putting him in that category to distinguish him as one of the best on the grid. In reality, I'd only class Alonso and Hamilton as potential "greats".

I agree with both of you here.

I am however surprised at how underrated Webber is as a driver.

I mean if we look at best wins of the Year.

I'd Say Lewis at Singapore #1 because he had pressure at the start and a KERS issue to fix

#2 would be Webber at Germany because getting a penalty and still winning now that's raw pace also when you consider he wasn't fully fit and had a walking stick at the start of the year..

#3 would be Button at Bahrain because he convincingly won from the back.

I don't think Felipe or Vettle could of won any of #2/#3 races in the same position.

[scotty]

I don't think Felipe or Vettle could of won any of #2/#3 races in the same position.

I think both of them have only actually ever won when they've started from the front row of the grid...

[racechick]

In the best car of 2008 Felipe finished 2nd in the best car of 2009 Button Finished 1st.

Felipe needed help from Kimi also.

That's a bit black and white Gaz, you need to consider competition as well. Button had a grossly superior car at the beginning of 2009, at which point he was able to build up a rather healthy lead. During the second half of the season the field was more equal, making it harder for his closest competitors to make up that deficit

Massa had a great car but he also had Hamilton as his main competition, who was also in a very good car.

Need I also say that Button needed help from Barrichello (as far as set up goes) in order to win his championship?

Here goes agen!!

Top dogs
1. Hamilton
2. Alonso


Verygoods
3. Massa
4. Kimmi
5. Webber
6. Vettel
7/8 Button Barrichelo(Difficult to call)


Could be very goods in different cars/circumstances

9. Kubica
10 Rosberg
11.Heidfeld.
12 Glock
13.Fisi
14. Suthil
15. Buemi (maybe he should go higher, I forget about him)

Wierd group
16.Trulli-(qualis well but never does much else)
17.Kovi (Similar to trulli but less excuse in a McLaren)
18. Kobi whatshis name (bodes very well but only 2 races yet)
19. Piquet ( Dont think he had a fair crack at Renault)

Boring group
20. Bordais (I forget about him)
There may be more drivers in here...ive forgotten about them )

Poo group
21. Algi whatsisname
22. nakagima
23. Badoer

Makes sense to me Racechick

On the whole I agree with you, except I'd probably swap Vettel/Webber and Massa/Kimi. I'd bump Rosberg up a good few places too.

Im a bit biased in favour of Webber over Vettel but I do think Webbers injury affecterd him. massa and Kimmi???? depends on how the car is developed and how motivated Kimi is, I gave it massa because he's improved over the last two years while Kimi I think has slipped a bit.

Rosberg's tricky, id really need to see him in a better car...well next year we should do But yes he has the potential to shin up the grid.
Hey, glad you could understand my table

[Amanda]

I fail to see where this idea of Massa as a great of his time comes from. He's quick on his day, but he's turned in some truly abysmal races, as recently as 2008. He's made silly mistakes, completely unprompted, as recently as 2008. He was reckless but quick before he joined The Scuderia, and now he's quick sometimes, but wildly inconsistent. He in no way matches, say, Hamilton - who may be quick but inconsistent (And his inconsistency is declining with experience - what's Massa's excuse?), but tends to be less bad on his off days than Massa (See Silverstone 2008 for an example of Massa's bad days).

As for people questioning why I have Button so high, it's down to racecraft. Jenson is almighty at putting together a whole race and ensuring there are points on the board at the end of the day. He's not anywhere near the all-out quickest driver, Massa even is perhaps faster on raw pace, but his racing is truly impressive. That's also one of the things I like about him.

I think for the purposes of this ranking system the word "great" is being brandished around a little too liberally by all of us. I don't think Massa will go down as one of the "greatest" drivers of all time but I'm putting him in that category to distinguish him as one of the best on the grid. In reality, I'd only class Alonso and Hamilton as potential "greats".

That's why I said "of his time". So far only Alonso has come close to earning the distinction of an all-time great (Before you all get upset about it, I only suggest Hamilton has not because it is too soon to say - look what happened to Villeneuve)

That's why I said "potential"

I can understand where you're coming from with Massa. It seems I don't rank consistency quite as highly as some people, although I'll agree it's important, I'm quite forgiving of mistakes provided they're not too frequent. I had this discussion in the snooker thread a while back where I ranked O'Sullivan as the best player ever, despite his obvious consistency issues.

[Gaz]

I don't think Felipe or Vettle could of won any of #2/#3 races in the same position.

I think both of them have only actually ever won when they've started from the front row of the grid...

Just took a quick look on Wikipedia...

Massa has won Bahrain 08 from 2nd and he may of won Hungary 08 without the engine failure.

But both of those were the result of good starts not race pace.

Vettle however has never won a race from the back by means of race pace or better start Abu Dhabi is the only race he's won when not staring on pole he was 2nd Lewis had to retire.

[Hansy]

1. Alonso
2. Raikkonen
3. Hamilton
4. Vettel

5. Kubica
6. Webber
7. Rosberg
8. Heidfeld
9. Button
10. Glock
11. Massa
12. Sutil

13. Barrichello
14. Liuzzi
15. Buemi
16. Trulli
17. Kovalainen
18. Fisichella
19. Kobayashi
20. Bourdais
21. Alguersuari
22. Grosjean

23. Piquet
24. Nakajima
25. Badoer

C'mon - Massa below Glock and Heidfeld?? And Barrichello below Sutil??

Yes and yes. I think Sutil shows a lot of promise, should be in a better car by now.

[Amanda]

I don't think Felipe or Vettle could of won any of #2/#3 races in the same position.

I think both of them have only actually ever won when they've started from the front row of the grid...

Just took a quick look on Wikipedia...

Massa has won Bahrain 08 from 2nd and he may of won Hungary 08 without the engine failure.

But both of those were the result of good starts not race pace.

Vettle however has never won a race from the back by means of race pace or better start Abu Dhabi is the only race he's won when not staring on pole and he was 2nd.

Massa
Bahrain '08 Qualified 2nd
France '08 Qualified 2nd
Spa '08 Qualified 2nd

So he's won from pole position 7 times and from 2nd 3 times. A total of 10 wins.

Sebastian Vettel
Abu Dhabi '09 Qualified 2nd

So he's won from pole 4 times and from 2nd once. A total of 5 wins.

Neither has been spectacular at winning from behind.

[al4x]

i said id put hamilton and alonso in a 1a group, cause, yeah they are the best by far, i think most see that, and alonso over hamilton so far

most think that also, massa is def not a great, neither is kimi, he could be, but isnt, cause of one thing.. willpower, he is funny tho!