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[LRW]

Well, the fact remains that there is no hard evidence, just stories from various people. Lance passed the tests at the time, which is more proof of innocence than anything they have against him now. France isn't in America, so yeah... not their right or jurisdiction at all.

He is reported to have taken 500 drug tests since 2000, and passed them all. That's almost one a WEEK for 12 years!!!!! Now I understand there are ways of cheating these things. But highly unlikely he managed to so it 500 times if he was cheating so badly.

So until there is proof against it, I am willling to believe him.

The daily mail disagrees with me.

[What's Burning?]

He had a better team.

If you guys read what I wrote, yes he was never caught cheating. But others around him were. Others in the USPostal and Discovery teams were never caught cheating either, but when they went to other teams they were. There is a ton of circumstantial evidence that points to associations with doctors that also were implicated in other cyclists cheating. Lance himself did fail a drug test in 1999 but it was later overturned.

The question to me wasn't if he was cheating. IMO, he was for all the reasons I've already noted. Cyclists that were cheating, Lance was easily able to handle. Not just win but in some years dominate. So we have two options... ignore all of the circumstantial evidence and say he was simply that good. Or simply make the assumptions that he, like everyone else was using performance enhancing drugs and was simply better prepared to NOT fail a test.

There is the ability to go back and test urine samples but there are tremendous legal rabbit holes in those avenues. So I think he was using, and I also think that he trained harder and rode smarter and built a better team around him, and had better support personnel and better coaches and better doctors than those around him and that's why he was able to do it seven times.

There's a reason why France has failed to have a strong French showing in the Tour for over a decade... that's because France has the strictest drug testing program of any other country. There is also a reason why this year, they had one of the best Tours in recent memory. The playing field is becoming more level.

It doesn't really mater to me if they strip him, or if they don't. History isn't being re written in my memory.

[Hammer278]

Well, the fact remains that there is no hard evidence, just stories from various people. Lance passed the tests at the time, which is more proof of innocence than anything they have against him now. France isn't in America, so yeah... not their right or jurisdiction at all.

Exactly. They just make a mockery of their rules and tests if they can punish a competitor who has done everything by their own book! i think Lance knows they are simply cutting their own nose to spite their face if they strip him off his achievements, some shine goes away from his records but he knows he's fought long enough for something which is no longer worth fighting for in his perspective. I sympathize with him fully.

[LRW]

He had a better team.

If you guys read what I wrote, yes he was never caughter cheating. But others around him were. Others in the USPostal, Discovery teams were never caught cheating either, but when they went to other teams they were. There is a ton of circumstantial evidence that points to associations with doctors that also were implicated in other cyclists cheating. Lance himself did fail a drug test in 1999 but it was later overturned.

The question to me wasn't if he was cheating. IMO, he was for all the reasons I've already noted. Cyclists that were cheating, Lance was easily able to handle. Not just win but in some years dominate. So we have two options... ignore all of the circumstantial evidence and say he was simply that good. Or simply make the assumptions that he, like everyone else was using performance enhancing drugs and was simply better prepared to NOT fail a test.

There is the ability to go back and test urine samples but there are tremendous legal rabbit holes in those avenues. So I think he was using, and I also think that he trained harder and rode smarter and built a better team around him, and had better support personnel and better coaches and better doctors than those around him and that's why he was able to do it seven times.

There's a reason why France has failed to have a strong French showing in the Tour for over a decade... that's because France has the strictest drug testing program of any other country. There is also a reason why this year, they had one of the best Tours in recent memory. The playing field is becoming more level.

It doesn't really mater to me if they strip him, or if they don't. History isn't being re written in my memory.

But I just don't agree with the 'everyone else was cheating, so he must of been'.

[What's Burning?]

I like reading fantasy too. Hell, even some religions are based on miraculous achievements. I'm not asking anyone to change their mind. Personally what the guy has done with his cancer foundation is a greater contribution to humanity than if he'd won 14 straight TDFs.

Just to bring it back to things we do know, Red Bull have also never been caught cheating.

[Hammer278]

True. It would be equally ridiculous stripping Redbull of any of their achievements, imagine that happened in F1!

I never thought I'd see the day an individual/team in competitive sports could take such an unfair blow, but I guess this world is full of surprises.

[andrew]

I didn't know that Red Bull competed in the Tour.

[What's Burning?]

I didn't know that Red Bull competed in the Tour.

You don't know how much you don't know.

[andrew]

I know plenty.

[What's Burning?]

And I don't know the half of it.

[Hammer278]

I didn't know that Red Bull competed in the Tour.

And the i**** strikes again. Jeez, you can't have a decent discussion in a thread without this p**** checking in with the usual crap.

[darwin dali]

Cool it children or I'll pull out the paddle!

[Jabberwocky]

I think Andrew was refering to this statement

ignore all of the circumstantial evidence and say he was simply that good. Or simply make the assumptions that he, like everyone else was using performance enhancing drugs and was simply better prepared to NOT fail a test.

As per Red Bulls flexi wing gate.

I do not fell that Andrew's statement, and not one should ever accept the torrent of insults that you have just given him.

[What's Burning?]

I think Andrew was refering to this statement

ignore all of the circumstantial evidence and say he was simply that good. Or simply make the assumptions that he, like everyone else was using performance enhancing drugs and was simply better prepared to NOT fail a test.

As per Red Bulls flexi wing gate.

I do not fell that Andrew's statement, and not one should ever accept the torrent of insults that you have just given him.

No one should have to decrypt messages typed with your toes.

[What's Burning?]

AP Reports; Lance Armstrong said he wanted to see the names of his accusers. The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency gave him 26, including 11 ex-teammates.

The world's most famous cyclist said he wanted to see the hard evidence that he was a doper. The agency gave him that, too: About 200 pages filled with vivid details – from the hotel rooms riders transformed into makeshift blood-transfusion centers to the way Armstrong's ex-wife rolled cortisone pills into foil and handed them out to all the cyclists.

In all, a USADA report released Wednesday gives the most detailed, unflinching portrayal yet of Armstrong as a man who, day after day, week after week, year after year, spared no expense – financially, emotionally or physically – to win the seven Tour de France titles that the anti-doping agency has ordered taken away.

It presents as matter-of-fact reality that winning and doping went hand in hand in cycling and that Armstrong was the focal point of a big operation, running teams that were the best at getting it done without getting caught. Armstrong won the Tour as leader of the U.S. Postal Service team from 1999-2004 and again in 2005 with the Discovery Channel as the primary sponsor.

USADA said the path Armstrong chose to pursue his goals "ran far outside the rules."

It accuses him of depending on performance-enhancing drugs to fuel his victories and "more ruthlessly, to expect and to require that his teammates" do the same. Among the 11 former teammates who testified against Armstrong are George Hincapie, Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis.

USADA Chief Executive Travis Tygart said the cyclists were part of "the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen."

Armstrong did not fight the USADA charges, but insists he never cheated.

His attorney, Tim Herman, called the report "a one-sided hatchet job – a taxpayer funded tabloid piece rehashing old, disproved, unreliable allegations based largely on axe-grinders, serial perjurers, coerced testimony, sweetheart deals and threat-induced stories."