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[Bad Freddie]

Are Mercedes the only ones complaining ?

It would appear not !

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/12/15/ferrari-like-mercedes-unhappy-with-21-race-calendar/
http://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-news/marchionne-teams-need-money-21-races/

and as for whining and feet stamping

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/35103892

Truly Overdosed

Not buying it BadF.

Ferrari is just taking care of business.

They are looking out for all the teams by pointing out that Bernie needs to put up more money.
They are looking out for themselves by putting Bernie/Todt on notice that they just can't decide to change the rules. Sorry but their veto is a reality.

Meanwhile we have Mercedes crying and saying that they are too tired and "I am not sure we can actually cope". Pure whining. Suck it up guys, it's your job.

Truly sad Freddie.

So Mercedes are crying but Ferrari are just taking care of business !
the team that gets $90 mil more than any other team just because, needs even more money to finish second in a season with 1 more race
and threatening to quit unless they get there way yet again

Keep taking the medicine maybe a hospital bed will open up for you soon :thumb up:

Now I understand why this forum only has 4 active posters, half of them are deluded

Good Luck selling the site Stephen, I wish you luck, just remember that you can't sell your past success.

Bad Freddie out.

[myownalias]

I know it's somewhat off topic, but Ferrari claiming it's being unfairly treated when they get a 100m Euro head start and a veto is comical. If Ferrari's 100m was redistributed between the bottom five least wealthy teams, then there would be no talk of cheaper engines. As for Ferrari quitting, it will never happen, they rely on F1 too much as part of their business strategy.

[sagi58]

...As for Ferrari quitting, it will never happen, they rely on F1 too much as part of their business strategy.

It's a two-way street, isn't it!! In fact, I'd go so far as to say that F1 is synonymous with Ferrari.
Look at what's been going on this couple of years with Mercedes dominating, thanks to the rules in place... fans are becoming bored and are finding better things to pass their time.
If Ferrari "needs" F1, then the reality is that F1 "needs" Ferrari!!

[myownalias]

...As for Ferrari quitting, it will never happen, they rely on F1 too much as part of their business strategy.

It's a two-way street, isn't it!! In fact, I'd go so far as to say that F1 is synonymous with Ferrari.
Look at what's been going on this couple of years with Mercedes dominating, thanks to the rules in place... fans are becoming bored and are finding better things to pass their time.
If Ferrari "needs" F1, then the reality is that F1 "needs" Ferrari!!

But F1 doesn't keep releasing statements saying it might exclude Ferrari if they don't follow the rules it sets.

[sagi58]

...As for Ferrari quitting, it will never happen, they rely on F1 too much as part of their business strategy.

It's a two-way street, isn't it!! In fact, I'd go so far as to say that F1 is synonymous with Ferrari.
Look at what's been going on this couple of years with Mercedes dominating, thanks to the rules in place... fans are becoming bored and are finding better things to pass their time.
If Ferrari "needs" F1, then the reality is that F1 "needs" Ferrari!!

But F1 doesn't keep releasing statements saying it might exclude Ferrari if they don't follow the rules it sets.

Maybe they're "scared" to issue the threat?

[overboost]

So Mercedes are crying but Ferrari are just taking care of business !
the team that gets $90 mil more than any other team just because, needs even more money to finish second in a season with 1 more race
and threatening to quit unless they get there way yet again

Keep taking the medicine maybe a hospital bed will open up for you soon :thumb up:

Now I understand why this forum only has 4 active posters, half of them are deluded

Good Luck selling the site Stephen, I wish you luck, just remember that you can't sell your past success.

Bad Freddie out.

Yes, the comments by Ferrari that you had referenced were about the business/financial aspects of supporting a longer race season as well as defending their existing agreements with Bernie including their veto.

On the contrary Merc were busy naval gazing, worrying about their inability to cope and being too tired etc. I sure that even you can see the difference.

Ferrari's arrangement includes a $90M payment, but I am not sure what your point is here. As you are aware that no matter how well resourced a team is development of the engines is stringently controlled to spending a limited and reducing number of tokens each year. This is the defining aspect of F1 right now that is stifling competition, preventing a team like Ferrari from challenging for wins and generally ruining the show as we saw with 2015 being one of the worst seasons ever.

And thanks for offering up your hospital bed but it is probably better for everyone if you do keep it and return now to your treatments. Good luck.

[stonemonkey]

...Is there any relevance to the topic?

Yup!! IF the idea/premise Hoyle had in his possession was one he proposed
and which was dismissed by Mercedes, for whatever reason, then I was just
wondering if it wasn't his to take.

You can't unlearn things and you take your expertise and knowledge wherever you go, that's accepted in F1 and is the reason for gardening leave, so no one potentially moving to a rival team has the most recent work even just in their heads.


What is this idea/premise you mention?

Sort of... I was thinking more along the lines of having an innovative thought
and having it dismissed by the team you're working with. IF you choose to
take that idea with you to a different company, and that company develops
it, who "owns" the rights to it? The person who had the idea or the company
for whom they worked but who dismissed it?

Without a patent or copyright or whatever, no one owns it, someone giving it away to someone else may be liable if there's any secrets acts or NDAs involved. Might still be hard to prove someone else didn't come up with the idea independently.

Still don't see why this might be relevant though.

[sagi58]

...Still don't see why this might be relevant though.

IF the sensitive information Mercedes has accused Hoyle of having on his HD
was an idea that he came up with; but, which Mercedes subsequently dismissed,
for whatever reason, then Hoyle could possibly argue that it was his idea and he
wasn't "taking" anything he shouldn't have.

Yup! I know, it's all supposition; but, you never know!!

[stonemonkey]

Ehhhh no. Any files stored on company hardware will be company property, and no, (at least some of) the data he is alleged to have taken was data created after he was put on gardening leave.

[overboost]

These are recommendations from Ben Hoyle's linkedin page. I can see why Mercedes would do anything they could to prevent him joining Ferrari. From the recommendations he is at the top of the engine performance field and an expert in exploiting loopholes in the rules. Probably one of those responsible for Merc's engine advantage.

Recommendations
A preview of what LinkedIn members have to say about Ben:
'I have had the pleasure of managing Ben Hoyle for over two years and put quite simply, he is in my humble opinion amongst the best in his field in the world today. His understanding of the physics of IC engines in conjunction with his in-depth knowledge and experience of high speed, high performance motorsport engines is immensely impressive. Furthermore, he has an extremely thorough understanding of the MES Formula 1 SECU and coupling this with his ability to fully comprehend the operational boundaries (and potential loop-holes), as defined by the current regulations makes him a very powerful force in the field of Formula 1 motorsport calibration engineering'

'Ben is one, if not the, most diligent, highly capable, efficient and well rounded engineers I have worked with. He has a hugely detailed understanding and immense personal interest in his field of work - specifically with automotive engines and control, which consistently leads to outstanding results.'


If anyone here has a linkedin account we can add names to these recommendations.

[stonemonkey]

You'd think he would've known better then.

[sagi58]

You'd think Mercedes would have known better, too!
They obviously didn't make him an offer he couldn't refuse...
oh, wait... they did... they have effectively tied him up legally!!

[stonemonkey]

You'd think Mercedes would have known better, too!
They obviously didn't make him an offer he couldn't refuse...
oh, wait... they did... they have effectively tied him up legally!!

Ummm what? Someone breaches their contract and you blame the other party for the ensuing legal action, seriously?

[overboost]

You'd think he would've known better then.

Yes perhaps you are right.

But if the recommendation made by his manager is true, that "he is in my humble opinion amongst the best in his field in the world today" and that he knows engines from the actual physics of what is happening inside the combustion chamber then his reading that old race report from Hungary and reviewing engine reliability stats would be similar to you or I reading the comics or the sports scores!

Merc is going to do their best to ruin his career over it that is certain. I bet he is kicking himself pretty hard right now if what Merc is alleging is true.

[sagi58]

You'd think Mercedes would have known better, too!
They obviously didn't make him an offer he couldn't refuse...
oh, wait... they did... they have effectively tied him up legally!!

Ummm what? Someone breaches their contract and you blame the other party for the ensuing legal action, seriously?

At the moment, Hoyle is INNOCENT, as he has NOT been found guilty, so we do NOT know IF he breached his contract.
At the moment, REGARDLESS of irrefutable evidence of the ALLEGED theft, Hoyle is being tied up in legal proceedings.

To be honest, I don't know how Mercedes is going to be able to prove any wrongdoing, because it seems to be a case
of "he said, he said":

Daniel Johnson wrote:">Formula One hit by latest 'Spygate affair' with Mercedes engineer accused of stealing documents for Ferrari

...Hoyle told Mercedes in May 2014 that he would resign when his contract expired at the end of 2015. According to the documents, the team “became aware” soon after that he intended to join Ferrari and therefore moved him away from their F1 programme. He was even given a new e-mail address and data was removed from his company laptop.

However, despite being moved, Hoyle was allegedly found looking at race reports and took confidential data from this year’s Hungarian Grand Prix, won by Ferrari’s Sebastian Vettel. The files also contained the code required to decrypt raw race data. Mercedes claim Hoyle then deleted the files in an attempt to cover his tracks....