FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[Jabberwocky]

keep the wings as they are and have a flat floor, so no diffusers are allowed

[Gaz]

keep the wings as they are and have a flat floor, so no diffusers are allowed

GP2 floor would work better

[texasmr2]

crashnet

Two of F1's most respected designers have suggested that rather than pointing the finger of blame for the lack of overtaking in the top flight at the design of the cars, the powers-that-be might do better to take a closer look at the layout of some of the circuits to which the annual circus travels.

For years, aerodynamics and downforce have been vilified as the culprits that have turned grands prix all-too often into Sunday afternoon bore-a-thons, and whilst the reduction in downforce and return of slick tyres last season produced some improvement, there remains a long way to go – and the halcyon, wheel-to-wheel days of years gone-by remain a distant memory to most.

Williams technical director Sam Michael and Red Bull Racing chief technical officer Adrian Newey – the most esteemed designer of his generation, if not of all time, with his cars having swept to more than 100 grand prix victories – contend that some tracks simply don't lend themselves to close competition, an issue that needs to be tackled with some urgency.

“One thing that hasn't really been addressed at all so far is circuit design,” Michael told Racecar Engineering magazine. “You've got to ask yourself, why do you go to a race such as Barcelona where no-one overtakes, and then take exactly the same cars to Monza, Montreal or Hockenheim and you get lots of overtaking? Those cars are exactly the same aerodynamically, yet on one circuit they overtake a lot and on another circuit they don't overtake at all.

“It's because of the circuit layout; it's because when they lay out circuits, they don't look closely enough at the combination of slow-speed corners onto straights followed by slow-speed corners. This is something that the FIA is dealing with now and having a really strong look at. If you look at somewhere like Abu Dhabi – which was a brand new circuit – there are some very good aspects to that circuit, but because there were some pretty fundamental mistakes there, they need to change them before next year.

“There's no point being sensitive about it – ultimately there wasn't good enough racing in Abu Dhabi, and Formula 1 has to look at itself and ask why. You can't keep putting all of it on the car design all of the time. Of course the car design has some responsibility for it, and if you went to every circuit and you never saw any overtaking, then you could blame it all on the car design – but clearly that's not the case, because there are places where cars do overtake. Clearly this needs a pretty thorough look at. It's something the FIA has taken charge of now, so hopefully we'll see some good come out of it.”

Indeed, the sport's governing body recently hosted a seminar aimed at investigating the means by which to boost overtaking in F1, reports ITV, with seven-time world champion and new Mercedes Grand Prix-signing Michael Schumacher, veteran Penske and G-Force designer Nigel Bennett and Hermann Tilke – the man responsible for many of the sport's not universally popular modern-day venues, dubbed 'Tilke-dromes' – all in attendance. Few changes are expected to be approved in time for the forthcoming campaign, however.

“Fundamentally, I think the circuits are probably the biggest influence,” Newey opined. “Everybody keeps conveniently forgetting about that, as it is deemed to be easier to change the cars than change the circuits.”

[darwin dali]

crashnet

“You've got to ask yourself, why do you go to a race such as Barcelona where no-one overtakes, and then take exactly the same cars to Monza, Montreal or Hockenheim and you get lots of overtaking? Those cars are exactly the same aerodynamically, yet on one circuit they overtake a lot and on another circuit they don't overtake at all.

While I sympathize with the general gist of the article, I would dispute the above statement - cars are not the same. Teams change a lot of settings, and yes, some are aero. Plus they bring new parts to races specifically designed for those races and Monza is a prime example.

[LifeW12]

There were 0 on track passing moves at Valencia this year!! That track needs to go and be replaced either by Algarve or an American race. What's the point of racing on tracks where it is impossible to overtake? If all Bernie wants is $$$ in his pocket then he's stupid.

Tilke's tracks are specifically designed for overtaking, on paper. We see lots of passing in other series like V8 Supercars, GP2, FBMW, Supercup, MotoGP but F1 cars seem to be stuck in that .7 of a second range where they never get any closer. Most passes only happen when there is a large difference between the cars or in the pit lane exit. A lot of circuits are designed in a way where the one or two main passing chances are on consecutive corners and the rest of the circuit prohibits passing. They need to have passing chances spread out with several corners between them. Also the acceleration of the series' mentioned is not so great which means the concertina effect of hairpins and chicanes is far reduced compared to F1.

Valencia is a great example of the problems that F1 cars have in keeping within .5 of a second, which is the zone that passes can happen.

[vaptin]

Well perhaps the main point is circuits like monza and spa force f1 teams to use areo settings that are better for overtaking?

[BritishBear]

I agree with this article placing at least some of the blame into track design. Bear in mind that some of these tracks haven't been changed for many years, where cars were different (slower, not as wide, different aero etc etc).

GET RID OF MONACO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LifeW12]

I agree with this article placing at least some of the blame into track design. Bear in mind that some of these tracks haven't been changed for many years, where cars were different (slower, not as wide, different aero etc etc).

Barcelona is virtually the same configuration as its first race was back in '91 and Monza hasn't changed much in 30 years either.

GET RID OF MONACO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It should have been done 30 years ago but its too classic a race to remove. Maybe if someone crashes into the harbour or rolls down the hill from Mirabeau and ends up in the Portier then the curtain will come down.

[darwin dali]

GET RID OF MONACO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sacrilege!!

[BritishBear]

GET RID OF MONACO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sacrilege!!

Its the one race I refuse to watch, and its because the race just becomes a mule train. Overtaking is none-existant, the track is just too narrow for todays cars.

[vaptin]

GET RID OF MONACO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sacrilege!!

Its the one race I refuse to watch, and its because the race just becomes a mule train. Overtaking is none-existant, the track is just too narrow for todays cars.

what about Valencia?

[BritishBear]

Didn't really enjoy Valencia for the same reason, but its a new track and could see some changes (possibly), Monaco hasn't changed since the dawn of time.

[Hansy]

Monaco may be a bore fest. Yes that's true. But it was the one race that got me hooked on F1, the scenario is so distinct from other races, it's beautiful. Valencia should go, not Monaco.

[BritishBear]

Monaco may be a bore fest. Yes that's true. But it was the one race that got me hooked on F1, the scenario is so distinct from other races, it's beautiful. Valencia should go, not Monaco.

They both should go really, or at least changed to accomodate more overtaking, however Monaco being a street circuit, they probably can't do anything with it.

[Denthúl]

Monaco may be a bore fest. Yes that's true. But it was the one race that got me hooked on F1, the scenario is so distinct from other races, it's beautiful. Valencia should go, not Monaco.

They both should go really, or at least changed to accomodate more overtaking, however Monaco being a street circuit, they probably can't do anything with it.

The appeal of Monaco for me is not the overtaking, although when a move happens it adds to the excitement because it's so hard to do so. But the challenge for the driver is immense. If they lose concentration in Malaysia, Bahrain, Turkey, China etc. then there are plenty of run-off areas for them to take to and rejoin the circuit. In Monaco, loss of concentration will result in hitting the barriers. It also takes skill and bravery to be quick. You need to be able to get as close to the barriers without hitting them and you need to be very bold in making your way around the track.