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[manbearpig]

a team member had the bible not the team, on the other hand with the Renault and Toyota cases there is hard evidence that the two teams actually used data from another team.
the FIA never had proof McLaren used Ferrari data on the MP4-22 and time will tell if any data was used in the design of the 23.

The e-mail proved they were using it , if for nothing else to know what not to do , which can save valuable time that could be wasted chasing a false positive . And they also proved the info was bandied about the team . But , they also had Ferrari's tire data , fuel strategy etc. The Mclaren fans need to accept that . The only remaining question is just how many knew . And I for one , don't think RD really knew the extent of what was there until it was too late . But , the just must suffer with the unjust , as they say .

[bud]

The emails proved that information was being passed over a cetain period where Stepney was in contact with Coughlan. the emails didnt prove they were using the so called bible though! which they were punished for in the end. No technology was found to have been used.
on the other hand this Renault case has evidence where McLaren technology has been used so in affect should be punished alot harder than what McLaren were.

this whole espionage bullpoo really does stink i wont buy anything from the FIA seeing as they never went this route with the Toyota case.
their explaination is Ferrari never complained then, so why did Ferrari complain to them now? look what can of worms have been opened! They will have pie on their face if they didnt investigate Renault, im sure McLaren wouldnt have complained about it if not for them being reemed!!

[manbearpig]

The emails proved that information was being passed over a cetain period where Stepney was in contact with Coughlan. the emails didnt prove they were using the so called bible though! which they were punished for in the end. No technology was found to have been used.
on the other hand this Renault case has evidence where McLaren technology has been used so in affect should be punished alot harder than what McLaren were.

this whole espionage bullpoo really does stink i wont buy anything from the FIA seeing as they never went this route with the Toyota case.
their explaination is Ferrari never complained then, so why did Ferrari complain to them now? look what can of worms have been opened! They will have pie on their face if they didnt investigate Renault, im sure McLaren wouldnt have complained about it if not for them being reemed!!

But they did discuss the tire data . The conversation about the tire gas . And it doesn't matter if any info made it onto the car , they were using it , end of story . That's what they were punished for . And from the news report , Renault is going to be investigated , and I'm sure they will be punished accordingly . What that punishment is will depend on the amount of info they had . And as for the Toyota case , the info exchanged was old info , and the ones involved were punished , by a court of law , not by the FIA .

But why Toyota wasn't punished is beyond me , perhaps because they didn't make good use of what they had . Looks like they are still being punished for that , on track . And maybe Ferrari complained this time because they are tired of getting thir sh*t jacked . But I agree , it's all a load of crap . It would be better if it never happened in the first place , but the blame there lies on Mclaren for having the info , not on Ferrai for getting it stolen . It's not like Stepney was some stranger or garage lackey who wandered in an stuck it in their pants , then walked out . It would be like your long time good friend stealing everything you have , wouldn't you be upset at that ?

[racechick]

The emails proved that information was being passed over a cetain period where Stepney was in contact with Coughlan. the emails didnt prove they were using the so called bible though! which they were punished for in the end. No technology was found to have been used.
on the other hand this Renault case has evidence where McLaren technology has been used so in affect should be punished alot harder than what McLaren were.

this whole espionage bullpoo really does stink i wont buy anything from the FIA seeing as they never went this route with the Toyota case.
their explaination is Ferrari never complained then, so why did Ferrari complain to them now? look what can of worms have been opened! They will have pie on their face if they didnt investigate Renault, im sure McLaren wouldnt have complained about it if not for them being reemed!!

Its a poor explanation from the FIA, very poor. If they feel a rule has been broken they should investigate ALL cases not just the ones on Ferrari say so. Why waiy for a complaint if they can see a transgression in their rules. You cant pick and choose who you decide to punish!

[bud]

It would be better if it never happened in the first place , but the blame there lies on Mclaren for having the info , not on Ferrai for getting it stolen . It's not like Stepney was some stranger or garage lackey who wandered in an stuck it in their pants , then walked out . It would be like your long time good friend stealing everything you have , wouldn't you be upset at that ? [/list]

hang on how can you put the blame on McLaren alone, you describe Stepney as a rouge employee in this case so is Coughlan he is disobeying the terms of his contract by breaching rule 151c which Stepney also breached.
Yet McLaren as a team get the punishment!

Manbearpig dont you think its abit suss that a sole tyre supplier is giving only one team a certain gas to help with tyre wear on long runs in the first place?

and the FIA has said the reason why they didnt punish Toyota is because Ferrari didnt make a complaint to them. Funny how Ferrari can choose when to go to the FIA, If Ferrari were true to their word they would have reacted the same way towards Toyota as they did with McLaren,

Like i said now that the FIA has punished McLaren to this large extent they have opened a can of worms and im sure they will have to hand out these punishments for time to come yet! because with the amount of engineer movements that happen in the industry espionage is bound to happen.

FIA making a mockery of how they run F1 max resign please!

[onelapdown]

It's such balls. Industrial espionage in F1 has been going on for decades in one form or another, and it's perfectly legal and common practice for F1 teams to hire photographers to get pictures of their rivals' new parts. Has anyone asked the question as to how Ferrari found out about Renault's mass damper system? I think it's like doping in athletics - a certain amount of this is inevitable.

Absolutely! Ive been saying that for ages.
Mosely wanted Ferrari to win tho and he had the vendetta against Ron. Lets just see if he plays fair and punishes in accordance with the crime. (Crime in Moselys eyes, as had been said many times, this goes on!) They have now set a precident, they either punish equally or recind McLarens punishment. And yes what about Toyota!! The whole thing stinks big time

Uhh.... So tell me about all these occasion where an opposing team has been caught with another teams entire data file , or their " Bible " as John Watson put it ? Hmm ? Must be lots of cases , I'm sure you'll fill us in .

I can give you at least one example - when the Shadow team had a falling out and some team members founded Arrows, the new team was taken to court for breach of copyright having almost completely copied the Shadow car.That was in the 1970s, so there really is nothing new under the sun...

[McLaren Fan]

The emails proved that information was being passed over a cetain period where Stepney was in contact with Coughlan. the emails didnt prove they were using the so called bible though! which they were punished for in the end. No technology was found to have been used.
on the other hand this Renault case has evidence where McLaren technology has been used so in affect should be punished alot harder than what McLaren were.

this whole espionage bullpoo really does stink i wont buy anything from the FIA seeing as they never went this route with the Toyota case.
their explaination is Ferrari never complained then, so why did Ferrari complain to them now? look what can of worms have been opened! They will have pie on their face if they didnt investigate Renault, im sure McLaren wouldnt have complained about it if not for them being reemed!!

But they did discuss the tire data . The conversation about the tire gas . And it doesn't matter if any info made it onto the car , they were using it , end of story . That's what they were punished for . And from the news report , Renault is going to be investigated , and I'm sure they will be punished accordingly . What that punishment is will depend on the amount of info they had . And as for the Toyota case , the info exchanged was old info , and the ones involved were punished , by a court of law , not by the FIA .

But why Toyota wasn't punished is beyond me , perhaps because they didn't make good use of what they had . Looks like they are still being punished for that , on track . And maybe Ferrari complained this time because they are tired of getting thir sh*t jacked . But I agree , it's all a load of crap . It would be better if it never happened in the first place , but the blame there lies on Mclaren for having the info , not on Ferrai for getting it stolen . It's not like Stepney was some stranger or garage lackey who wandered in an stuck it in their pants , then walked out . It would be like your long time good friend stealing everything you have , wouldn't you be upset at that ?

The information McLaren had was mainly useless. That information is well known down the pit lane. What Alonso and de la Rosa did was foolishly put it in black and white.

The information Toyota has was not old. If it was deemed old then there would be no cause for the FIA to be examining McLaren's 2008 car. Also, it doesn't matter how well or poorly the team was doing: If you do the crime you should do the time.

Ferrari complained because McLaren were a threat last season. The FIA duly saw this is their opportunity to assist Ferrari. If Toyota had of been a front-running outfit they too would have severely punished.

[Maser250F]

The information McLaren had was mainly useless. That information is well known down the pit lane. What Alonso and de la Rosa did was foolishly put it in black and white.

The information Toyota has was not old. If it was deemed old then there would be no cause for the FIA to be examining McLaren's 2008 car. Also, it doesn't matter how well or poorly the team was doing: If you do the crime you should do the time.

Ferrari complained because McLaren were a threat last season. The FIA duly saw this is their opportunity to assist Ferrari. If Toyota had of been a front-running outfit they too would have severely punished.

You're the absolute epitome of a delusional, moronic McLaren fan. Congratulations.

[bud]

The information McLaren had was mainly useless. That information is well known down the pit lane. What Alonso and de la Rosa did was foolishly put it in black and white.

The information Toyota has was not old. If it was deemed old then there would be no cause for the FIA to be examining McLaren's 2008 car. Also, it doesn't matter how well or poorly the team was doing: If you do the crime you should do the time.

Ferrari complained because McLaren were a threat last season. The FIA duly saw this is their opportunity to assist Ferrari. If Toyota had of been a front-running outfit they too would have severely punished.

You're the absolute epitome of a delusional, moronic McLaren fan. Congratulations.

and youre calling someone a moron with your third post, congratulations!

he has a point about why Ferrari didnt go to the FIA with Toyota.

[Maser250F]

The information McLaren had was mainly useless. That information is well known down the pit lane. What Alonso and de la Rosa did was foolishly put it in black and white.

The information Toyota has was not old. If it was deemed old then there would be no cause for the FIA to be examining McLaren's 2008 car. Also, it doesn't matter how well or poorly the team was doing: If you do the crime you should do the time.

Ferrari complained because McLaren were a threat last season. The FIA duly saw this is their opportunity to assist Ferrari. If Toyota had of been a front-running outfit they too would have severely punished.

You're the absolute epitome of a delusional, moronic McLaren fan. Congratulations.

and youre calling someone a moron with your third post, congratulations!

he has a point about why Ferrari didnt go to the FIA with Toyota.

A post count elitist, huh? Always funny. I could have .5 posts and be smarter than about half the people around this joint.

[bud]

not at all mate, just curious to know how you can call someone a moron when youve been around here for 3 posts?!

hmm smarter than most around this joint huh who is the true elitist then?

[Maser250F]

not at all mate, just curious to know how you can call someone a moron when youve been around here for 3 posts?!

hmm smarter than most around this joint huh who is the true elitist then?

You're a smooth one. But I've seen a thousand delusional, moronic posts by McLaren fans, and I'll see a thousand more. I'm an expert by now.

Also, I've been lurking here for a while. Some damn bright people, but posts like the one I mentioned are way too frequent. I stand by the statement. Smarter than most.

[bud]

as i can say ive seen a million delusional posts by Ferrari/Schumacher fans over the years while the Schumacher brigade have moved onto tennis to follow Federer we still get the Ferrari tifosi (lambs as i call them) posting BS wasting bandwidth.

[Maser250F]

as i can say ive seen a million delusional posts by Ferrari/Schumacher fans over the years while the Schumacher brigade have moved onto tennis to follow Federer we still get the Ferrari tifosi (lambs as i call them) posting BS wasting bandwidth.

People still watch tennis?

[onelapdown]

as i can say ive seen a million delusional posts by Ferrari/Schumacher fans over the years while the Schumacher brigade have moved onto tennis to follow Federer we still get the Ferrari tifosi (lambs as i call them) posting BS wasting bandwidth.

That's a dispicable smear against Roger Federer's fans and I demand that you withdraw it!!!