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[spankyham]

Yes and lying to race stewards is trivial, should not even be mentioned right in the same sentence as your almighty lord Lewis Hamilton the great.

That was last year. This debate is about THIS year, and mistakes made THIS year. Im not sure why you bring that up?

Actually, you asked the question and you didn't limit it to this year. You simply asked about the history of mistakes for current contenders.

"but mistakes???Hes made less than the other title contenders."

And, the fact is that lying is pretty huge as far as mistakes go

I guess we can add today's effort to the list as well, pretty ordinary and, by my count that now makes 3 times Lewis has hit other cars from behind - and yes, that's only this year's count.

For me there is a reasonable question to ask, and that is, today's effort was really bad and pretty dangerous. Given that Micheal was penalized 10 grid places (without actually touching Rubens), and given that this is Lewis's 3rd offence this year, should he be penalized likewise?

It was fairly clear I meant this year. As to hitting cars from behind-see my answer where you last posted the same comment, you're repeating yourself with the same statements on different threads. Can we get back onto topic with this thread. Its about Ferrari and the result of the hearing.

No offense but:-
1) It wasn't clear from your question and
2) you're the one who ask the question in this thread so perhaps you should both give yourself the advice about staying on topic and then follow it

[racechick]

I dont believe I asked a question. But I am taking my own advice and moving this topic back to the path it has strayed from. I now will ask a question.
Do you think Alonso has damaged his image with the fans as a result of Ferrari's actions and the ensuing hearing?

[What's Burning?]

I dont believe I asked a question. But I am taking my own advice and moving this topic back to the path it has strayed from. I now will ask a question.
Do you think Alonso has damaged his image with the fans as a result of Ferrari's actions and the ensuing hearing?

Come on RC... you know the answer to that question is NO!

[spankyham]

I dont believe I asked a question. But I am taking my own advice and moving this topic back to the path it has strayed from. I now will ask a question.
Do you think Alonso has damaged his image with the fans as a result of Ferrari's actions and the ensuing hearing?

I think the entrenched antiferrarista have jumped on the issue and have remained anti-ferrari
I think the Tifosi have jumped to their teams defence and remain Tifosi
I think the rest, who have looked at the whole issue believe that all the teams use team orders, as was confirmed in the WMSC decision.
I think these non-aligned people see two class of teams, those that admit to team tactics a la Ferrari Williams and Sauber and then there are teams that apply team orders and lie about it. Teams with a history of lying are probably at the bottom of the "to be believed list".

Overall, leaving aside the antiferrarista, I think he has enhanced his image because he's seen as honest and practical, rather than someone who would turn again to lying to try and cover his backside.

[smokin]

I dont believe I asked a question. But I am taking my own advice and moving this topic back to the path it has strayed from. I now will ask a question.
Do you think Alonso has damaged his image with the fans as a result of Ferrari's actions and the ensuing hearing?

I think the entrenched antiferrarista have jumped on the issue and have remained anti-ferrari
I think the Tifosi have jumped to their teams defence and remain Tifosi
I think the rest, who have looked at the whole issue believe that all the teams use team orders, as was confirmed in the WMSC decision.
I think these non-aligned people see two class of teams, those that admit to team tactics a la Ferrari Williams and Sauber and then there are teams that apply team orders and lie about it. Teams with a history of lying are probably at the bottom of the "to be believed list".

Overall, leaving aside the antiferrarista, I think he has enhanced his image because he's seen as honest and practical, rather than someone who would turn again to lying to try and cover his backside.

Spot on with your first three points, spanky. I'll gloss over the rest of your post as the product of a declared bias.

[Martin]

Hi again F1 folks. Long time no speak for me, but its nice to see so many of the old names still going.
Those of you who remember me will know that I am no Ferrari fan, but, well done to them at Monza, a well deserved win. However, the drivers and the constructors points for Ferrari are incorrect in my view. Alonso did not win the points in Germany, he was given them. Ferrari management cheated and they have been found guilty, but not penalised, this cannot be right. Alonso, and the team, have points that they did not win. We know how ineffective the FIA is, especially when it comes to Ferrari, but the given reasons are not acceptable I think. (that other teams have cheated and not been punished)
F1 has one very serious flaw in my opinion. It is an inward looking, self serving sport. Michael Schumacher summed this up perfectly when he said that team orders should be given, just not done so obviously, and that they (the teams) are there for one purpose only - to win the championship. WRONG! they are there to entertain us - the fans, they have no other purpose - no fans = no sponsors, no sponsors = no F1. The sponsors only hand over cash in order to get their image over to us - the fans. Most fans are interested in F1 because of the racing. Being ordered to move over to let your team mate by is not racing, it is cynical manipulation of the rules. Ferrari are a disgrace and always have been. As the oldest team they should lead by a clean example.
We fans are grossly underestimated by F1, whenever they talk about the sport they talk only of themselves. Lets become a pain in the neck to the FIA and the teams - lets tell them that we want the sport run our way, not by some backroom mangers decisions made for the benefit of the team and not the fans. I support pure racing, not manipulated games. Lets contact the teams and the FIA and demand our terms. It is said that there is no point in having a 'no team orders' rule because it cannot be enforced. Absolute rubbish, on that basis there is no point in having many of our criminal laws, because it is not easy to enforce them. A copy of each driver contract should lodged with the FIA. Any team members who knows about team orders but does not report it to the FIA should be personally liable to prosecution - even years later. If individuals are liable then management cannot enforce team orders. M

[vaptin]

I dont believe I asked a question. But I am taking my own advice and moving this topic back to the path it has strayed from. I now will ask a question.
Do you think Alonso has damaged his image with the fans as a result of Ferrari's actions and the ensuing hearing?

I'm not sure, everyone in the f1 paddock whose spoken up seems to be saying all teams use team orders etc. So internally, I don't think it mattered too much, in temrs of the FIA referencing other teams have used team orders and got away with it, some teams probably know its best for them as well that Ferrari diddn't get punished as Ferrari would then force the FIA to backlog all other uses of team orders.

Externally (from fans of f1), I think its calmed down a lot now, and most people see a disappointment in not seeing a driver on track battle - but they'll get over that. In terms of the moral standpoints, its only been big becuase it was so obvious and Massa is a popular figure who attracts a lot of sympathy and Alonso is unpopular, but most f1 fans I think accept this is how the teams operate closer to the end of the season, fans of other series seem to be able to accept it, so why not f1 fans? In terms of Ferrari breaking the rules, again other teams have managed to do the same (by the FIA's admission) and escaped punishment, its the rule that needs reforming.

From the view of those who don't follow f1 and motorsports, then yes, but again only becuase it was obvious and blown up by the media.

[scotty]

Martin - i moved your post to this thread as it is on the same basic topic.

[nish2280]

I dont believe I asked a question. But I am taking my own advice and moving this topic back to the path it has strayed from. I now will ask a question.
Do you think Alonso has damaged his image with the fans as a result of Ferrari's actions and the ensuing hearing?

Yes, yes we all know that it is the option taken by many when they are loosing in a debate. Also it was you that stated Alonso has made too many mistakes to be considered best driver. And that does not limit the debate to any year whatsoever. But by all means, hide behind your "im responsible and im going to put the thread back onto track" defence.

Honestly, i dont think people hate Hamilton, i think they just dont understand how his fans can so blatantly make statements which they have no statistics or ability to back their great idol with.

[f1ea]

Honestly, i dont think people hate Hamilton, i think they just dont understand how his fans can so blatantly make statements which they have no statistics or ability to back their great idol with.

I now will ask a question.
Do you think Alonso has damaged his image with the fans as a result of Ferrari's actions and the ensuing hearing?

The answer is no, as well. Alonso's image suffered as much as he did when he passed Massa into the pits
The image has suffered because of a GREAT deal of propaganda. The same sort of propaganda teams like Red Bull and/or Mclaren DO NOT get when they do similar:

Exhibit A - The Heikki pass.... no fuss at all. Not even a question raised. Nobody cared, nobody complained.
Exhibit B - Turkey. The only one to complain was Lewis.
Exhibit C - Monza for Red Bull. so, that could have been some sort of tricky play by the Red Bulls. Maybe. Who cares? will anybody start a campaign aganist them and damage their image? i seriously doubt it.

[Bubbie]

I don't think it can all be down to Propaganda...

Just like when people had the hate on for Hamilton with all the whining about his car last year on the radio and to the commentators... The whining from Alonso this year on the radio would have lost him some respect from fans (not the Tifosi mentalcases or the McLaren nuts obviously - they already have their minds made up on any issue, just look at some of the people on these boards).

However, I have come to respect Hamilton, by seeing how he gets on with his team mate and seems to be having a good time.

Alonso likewise is starting to grow on me over the last couple races. He seems not to be such a sausage all the time. I had a big hate on for Alonso, which peaked with Germany. Stefano is in the exact same position for me, after Germany I wanted him hoisted up on a spikey object. But watching him in Monza totally changed my view.

The only thing I am struggling with is this question...

1 - Are Alonso and Dominicali only in a good mood because they are winning? And as soon as they start to lose, they will start the whining and douchbaggery?

or

2 - Are we seeing that they can be good guys because they were stressed out due to a lot of misfortune, and now we are seeing what they are truly made of?

I am sure the answer lies somewhere in between.

[vaptin]

By 2 do you mean it's just when they're stressed they look bad becuase it gets to them, but really they're good guys?

I think Stefano should claim most of the credit, after Sliverstone he gave a motivation speech and Alonso and Massa have looked a lot happier since then.

[Bubbie]

Vaptin, that is exactly what I meant. Stress can make the best of us act crazy and irrational. I also think you are right with regards to Stefano, I was critical of him in one of my other posts that he needs to do his job and be a leader, and I am thinking that is what he is now doing (I also think LD Montezelemo has been making sure people get down to business as well).

Oh and getting back on topic (my apologies to the mods)...

I was origninally unhappy with the result of the hearing, but after thinking about it for some time; It seems like the right decision. Had the WMSC given them additional fines or points penalties it would be something that would be going through the courts right now.

With this both sides sorta won. Ferrari were found guilty of using team orders, and bringing the sport in disrepute. The fine was all that was handed down, and ferrari can definitely scrounge around the couches in their motorhome and find the money to pay the fine. The fans got educated on the situation and we have been assured that an official body will look at the rule and whether it is tenable or not.

If it had gone either way, there would be flamewars on here (either F got off too easy, or F got screwed). There would be court cases or outright BS on the track with teams switching cars and causing more hullabaloo.

Now we can get over it and get back to racing. In the end I think the WMSC did the right thing, even though it wasn't what I thought I wanted done at the time.

[racechick]

Hi again F1 folks. Long time no speak for me, but its nice to see so many of the old names still going.
Those of you who remember me will know that I am no Ferrari fan, but, well done to them at Monza, a well deserved win. However, the drivers and the constructors points for Ferrari are incorrect in my view. Alonso did not win the points in Germany, he was given them. Ferrari management cheated and they have been found guilty, but not penalised, this cannot be right. Alonso, and the team, have points that they did not win. We know how ineffective the FIA is, especially when it comes to Ferrari, but the given reasons are not acceptable I think. (that other teams have cheated and not been punished)
F1 has one very serious flaw in my opinion. It is an inward looking, self serving sport. Michael Schumacher summed this up perfectly when he said that team orders should be given, just not done so obviously, and that they (the teams) are there for one purpose only - to win the championship. WRONG! they are there to entertain us - the fans, they have no other purpose - no fans = no sponsors, no sponsors = no F1. The sponsors only hand over cash in order to get their image over to us - the fans. Most fans are interested in F1 because of the racing. Being ordered to move over to let your team mate by is not racing, it is cynical manipulation of the rules. Ferrari are a disgrace and always have been. As the oldest team they should lead by a clean example.
We fans are grossly underestimated by F1, whenever they talk about the sport they talk only of themselves. Lets become a pain in the neck to the FIA and the teams - lets tell them that we want the sport run our way, not by some backroom mangers decisions made for the benefit of the team and not the fans. I support pure racing, not manipulated games. Lets contact the teams and the FIA and demand our terms. It is said that there is no point in having a 'no team orders' rule because it cannot be enforced. Absolute rubbish, on that basis there is no point in having many of our criminal laws, because it is not easy to enforce them. A copy of each driver contract should lodged with the FIA. Any team members who knows about team orders but does not report it to the FIA should be personally liable to prosecution - even years later. If individuals are liable then management cannot enforce team orders. M

Some excellent points! Great to see you back Hope you hang around.

[racechick]

I dont believe I asked a question. But I am taking my own advice and moving this topic back to the path it has strayed from. I now will ask a question.
Do you think Alonso has damaged his image with the fans as a result of Ferrari's actions and the ensuing hearing?

Yes, yes we all know that it is the option taken by many when they are loosing in a debate. Also it was you that stated Alonso has made too many mistakes to be considered best driver. And that does not limit the debate to any year whatsoever. But by all means, hide behind your "im responsible and im going to put the thread back onto track" defence.

Yes I mentioned Alonso. He drives for Ferrari, this thread is about Ferrari. If you want to deabte Hamilton I will be only too pleased, but not on this thread.