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Will McLaren win their appeal?

Yes
3
9%
No
27
82%
I'm not sure
3
9%
#67588
What a waste of time, money, and energy. McLaren knew it all along that they have very little chances of winning their appeal. Imagine spending 100 thousand euros for nothing! Instead, they should've let go of the decision and put their money on research and development, or somewhere else like in a charity foundation or to the dying children in Africa due to starvation. It just makes me sad, so sad. :(


I think you're ignoring the long game. The FIA does not like McLaren. By going for the court case McLaren has gained publicity for the viewpoint (not always justified) that the FIA is anti-McLaren. As we've seen with the petitions, public opinion against this FIA bias is building, and there may eventually be a tipping point where potential sponsors of the sport become concerned about their image being tarnished.
User avatar
By AKR
#67593
yeah easy for a Ferrari fan to say :banghead::banghead: how about some nice court room decisions winning you titles?? Ferrari LOVE IT :thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown:

im sick of this s***! adios amigo's!!

ive lost the passion for F1 bye!!


Bud this is not us Ferrari supporters fault. You constantly take it out on us, especially me and if you want to know I have had enough of your crap. If you want to know the truth, I was at least expecting them (The FIA) to hear out McLaren's case and from there decide if the penalty should stand or not. I don't think it was nice that they just threw it out the window as inadmissable as well. I do believe that Lewis Hamilton is an arrogant little twat and should of been punished, BUT I don't think it is fair how the FIA have handled this as McLaren's case should of at least been heard and considered. What you fail to understand is, that as soon as you hear something negative come out about Lewis Hamilton, you just crack the shits and wont listen to anything or anyone and start out with the accusations. Eitherway like Ferrarista has said, let it go as there is nothing no one can do about it. On the bright side for you, Lewis Hamilton still leads the WDC by a point. This means theoricaly if both Massa and Lewis Hamilton fail to get any points for the last 4 races, then Lewis Hamilton wins. Well actually maybe not beacuse if both happend to fail to score for al that time then probably Kimi Raikkonen would win.
User avatar
By AKR
#67594
It's all B.S. I'm not a Mc Laren fan but, because of all this drama and BIAS thing, I will include Mc Laren team in my prayer to win this year. I am so upset with the decision. Now, Hamilton is PISSED......


Praying for a McLaren win wont help. God does not intervene in F1 refarding who will win. He may help people not get hurt ot killed but that is it. I know this because in the 1990s when Ferrari were crap I used to always pray for Ferrari to get better and be the best and win etc and it never really happened. I figured that well if the Williams and McLaren supporters did exactly what I did then how is God supposed to choose who should win? He doesn't so I determined that God just doesn't interfere with what happens in F1 or any other sport for that matter. But just incase I'll still pray that Ferrari wins both titles. I know you may think I am a biatch but Ferrari is my team and that is who I will support. Not my fault the FIA has done what it has done. There is nothing I can do about nor any other Ferrari or McLaren supporter and that is a fact.
User avatar
By AKR
#67595
The thing that bugs me is the fact that a drive through apparently costs you 25 seconds on the track. It just doesn't. :banghead:

Also, i can't believe some people actually voted 'yes', as if McLaren ever stood a chance on this one...


Actually for a moment, after the fact that I had to wait until Tuesday for the verdict, and that for some reason I thought the FIA were actually going to hear McLaren out, that they did have a chance. Then when they said it was inadmissable I was thinking, why didn't they just say that on the Monday? Weird. :confused:
#67596
I've been away a while so haven't commented as this has unfolded, so here is my considered thoughts.

From a purely moral sporting point of view this decision is a :censored: ing load of :censored: . Someone ought to gauge a :censored: into Moseley's head and :censored: some sense into him.

I'm not saying that (just) because I'm sore that Hamilton didn't get his points back. This decision was the ultimate cop-out, as we didn't get any further towards an adjudication on whether the stewards' original decision was correct or not, and as such there is simply no closure on this matter - this episode will now be etched into the long, long list of F1 controversies and will be brought out again and again ad nauseam as evidence of how F1 is somehow corrupt. That this accusation can once again be made can only be damaging for the sport.

Firstly, I had in the past questioned quite how affirmative Whiting's "OK" to McLaren was. Having read some of the evidence presented, I am now satisfied that after speaking to him McLaren were well within their rights to conclude that the matter was closed, and that he then changed his mind. It is his change of mind that is in my view unacceptable. As soon as he gave McLaren the OK he should have stuck to it as a matter of honour. You couldn't have a football referee giving out a yellow card, then ten minutes later thinking the initial judgement wasn't hard enough and sending the player off. To have left McLaren in this situation, when he could quite easily have said either that he did not have the authority to give a definitive answer or else erred on the side of caution and told them to let Raikkonen back past, undermines the working relationship between him and the teams and casts him in a very unprofessional light.

Secondly, it is my OPINION that the stewards, having been told to investigate by Whiting, reached the wrong conclusion about the incident. I have already explained why I think this so I won't repeat myself. Had the appeal been admitted and the original judgement upheld, I could have lived with that, as opinions on whether the judgement was right or not are just that - opinions.

Thirdly, to be fair to the stewards the rules on which they had to adjudicate are comical in their inadequacy. Until the teams arrived in Monza there was no clear official guidance on what to do in these situations, to the point at which even a race director with twenty years experience seemed to get confused... The rules not only need to be fully clarified, they also need to distinguish between a driver who has a) gone off track by mistake, b) taken a shortcut deliberately to gain an advantage, and c) left the track to avoid a collision, especially when forced to do so having been squeezed off track by the car in front.

Fourthly, what on earth Ferrari had to do with the appeal process God alone knows. They contributed nothing to the case, since their submissions mirrored almost exactly those from the FIA. All the have achieved is to appear scheming and Machiavellian, happy to win points in the courtroom, which again does damage to the reputation of the sport in general and of Ferrari in particular. The practice of all competitors being entitled to have an input on such hearings should stop - in future only the Governing body, the stewards involved and those competitors specifically cited in the original Stewards' decision should be able to present their respective cases.

Fifthly, paragraph 27 of the International Court of Appeal's judgement (regarding the case of Liuzzi at the 2007 Japanese GP) is possibly the most incredible load of :censored: I've read in a good long while (and that comes from a guy whose trade is politics...). In fact, in saying that the Liuzzi case does not establish a precedent due to not having been challenged it itself establishes a precedent and will in all likelihood lead to all sorts of minor decisions being formally challenged so as to establish a legally enforceable precedent.

Sixthly, I could understand that prior to the introduction of the 25 second rule following Schumacher's shenanigans at Silverstone in 1998 penalties imposed during a race could not be rescinded, but I fail to see how a drive-through or stop-go penalty served during the race is in practical terms the same as a 25 second time addition imposed two hours after the race has finished. Also, it seems to me that if you can add 25 seconds on for a penalty that should have been served during a race, you could rectify a penalty that SHOULDN'T have been administered by taking 25 seconds OFF, and so make this area subject to appeal on the same basis as technical infringements. However I still think that above all everything should be done to stop a race result being retrospectively amended on anything other than technical infringements, which for obvious reasons cannot be discovered until a race has finished.

Finally, nothing and no-one will convince me that anyone other than Lewis Hamilton deserved to win the 2008 Belgian Grand Prix. The fact that this race has now been awarded once and for all to someone who was comprehensively bested throughout the race both by his team-mate and his main championship rival is nothing short of an abomination.
User avatar
By AKR
#67598
If Mclaren won their case the FIA would have to admit they were wrong in the first place, if they lost the FIA would be seen to be bias. The A*seholes took the easy option of not having to make any decision.


Spot on. They took the cowardly back door. It's even worse this way than if the appeal had been admissable and the penalty not overturned. Gutless, spineless, corrupt, twisted. And everything else that pops up when you find those words in a Thesaurus.


Oh well I got up just to see the verdict and now going back to bed. Lets focus on the next GP at Singapore then shall we. This penalty case for Spa is now officially over. Thank God for that. :clap::thumbup::yes:


Yes thank god for that! Ferrari can now relax into yet another FIA staged win, phew! I was getting woried when Domenicali took over , I thought Ferrari were going to stop cheating and win on the track :yellowyikes: But we're ok , its back to business as usual.


Anna, Lewis still leads by a point does he not? What makes you think Ferrari/Massa have won? I certainly do not share this opinion if you are thinking it. Also given Lewis Hamilton still leads, unless he is an absolute idiot, what makes anyone think he is just going to drive like an idiot and throw it all away? You talk like it is all over, but your man still leads and there are 4 races still left.
#67602
I've been away a while so haven't commented as this has unfolded, so here is my considered thoughts.

From a purely moral sporting point of view this decision is a :censored: ing load of :censored: . Someone ought to gauge a :censored: into Moseley's head and :censored: some sense into him.

I'm not saying that (just) because I'm sore that Hamilton didn't get his points back. This decision was the ultimate cop-out, as we didn't get any further towards an adjudication on whether the stewards' original decision was correct or not, and as such there is simply no closure on this matter - this episode will now be etched into the long, long list of F1 controversies and will be brought out again and again ad nauseam as evidence of how F1 is somehow corrupt. That this accusation can once again be made can only be damaging for the sport.

Firstly, I had in the past questioned quite how affirmative Whiting's "OK" to McLaren was. Having read some of the evidence presented, I am now satisfied that after speaking to him McLaren were well within their rights to conclude that the matter was closed, and that he then changed his mind. It is his change of mind that is in my view unacceptable. As soon as he gave McLaren the OK he should have stuck to it as a matter of honour. You couldn't have a football referee giving out a yellow card, then ten minutes later thinking the initial judgement wasn't hard enough and sending the player off. To have left McLaren in this situation, when he could quite easily have said either that he did not have the authority to give a definitive answer or else erred on the side of caution and told them to let Raikkonen back past, undermines the working relationship between him and the teams and casts him in a very unprofessional light.

Secondly, it is my OPINION that the stewards, having been told to investigate by Whiting, reached the wrong conclusion about the incident. I have already explained why I think this so I won't repeat myself. Had the appeal been admitted and the original judgement upheld, I could have lived with that, as opinions on whether the judgement was right or not are just that - opinions.

Thirdly, to be fair to the stewards the rules on which they had to adjudicate are comical in their inadequacy. Until the teams arrived in Monza there was no clear official guidance on what to do in these situations, to the point at which even a race director with twenty years experience seemed to get confused... The rules not only need to be fully clarified, they also need to distinguish between a driver who has a) gone off track by mistake, b) taken a shortcut deliberately to gain an advantage, and c) left the track to avoid a collision, especially when forced to do so having been squeezed off track by the car in front.

Fourthly, what on earth Ferrari had to do with the appeal process God alone knows. They contributed nothing to the case, since their submissions mirrored almost exactly those from the FIA. All the have achieved is to appear scheming and Machiavellian, happy to win points in the courtroom, which again does damage to the reputation of the sport in general and of Ferrari in particular. The practice of all competitors being entitled to have an input on such hearings should stop - in future only the Governing body, the stewards involved and those competitors specifically cited in the original Stewards' decision should be able to present their respective cases.

Fifthly, paragraph 27 of the International Court of Appeal's judgement (regarding the case of Liuzzi at the 2007 Japanese GP) is possibly the most incredible load of :censored: I've read in a good long while (and that comes from a guy whose trade is politics...). In fact, in saying that the Liuzzi case does not establish a precedent due to not having been challenged it itself establishes a precedent and will in all likelihood lead to all sorts of minor decisions being formally challenged so as to establish a legally enforceable precedent.

Sixthly, I could understand that prior to the introduction of the 25 second rule following Schumacher's shenanigans at Silverstone in 1998 penalties imposed during a race could not be rescinded, but I fail to see how a drive-through or stop-go penalty served during the race is in practical terms the same as a 25 second time addition imposed two hours after the race has finished. Also, it seems to me that if you can add 25 seconds on for a penalty that should have been served during a race, you could rectify a penalty that SHOULDN'T have been administered by taking 25 seconds OFF, and so make this area subject to appeal on the same basis as technical infringements. However I still think that above all everything should be done to stop a race result being retrospectively amended on anything other than technical infringements, which for obvious reasons cannot be discovered until a race has finished.

Finally, nothing and no-one will convince me that anyone other than Lewis Hamilton deserved to win the 2008 Belgian Grand Prix. The fact that this race has now been awarded once and for all to someone who was comprehensively bested throughout the race both by his team-mate and his main championship rival is nothing short of an abomination.

Fantastic post. :thumbup:
By big ron
#67607
From a purely moral sporting point of view this decision is a :censored: ing load of :censored: . Someone ought to gauge a :censored: into Moseley's head and :censored: some sense into him.


When you start a post like that, you know the rest is going to be :censored: good!

Couldn't agree more.
Last edited by big ron on 24 Sep 08, 12:27, edited 1 time in total.
By Mikep99
#67609
Jordan: No conspiracy against Lewis
http://sport.setanta.com/en/Sport/News/Other-sports/2008/09/24/F1-Jordan-No-conspiracy-against-Lewis/

Ex-Formula 1 team boss Eddie Jordan has dismissed the notion that McLaren and Lewis Hamilton are being adversely treated by the FIA, though he believes the English racer “was hard done by” at the Belgian Grand Prix.

On Monday, Ron Dennis’ squad failed to overturn a 25-second penalty handed to Hamilton following his win at Spa-Francorchamps – which dropped him to third in the race standings – as the motion was declared ‘inadmissible’ by the International Court of Appeal.

Jordan, who founded the Jordan Grand Prix team and ran it until its demise in 2005, instead argued on Setanta Sports News that Hamilton should realise that he has plenty of time to stamp his mark on the sport.

"What Hamilton said is absolutely true - he should get on with it and put it behind him as he can't change what has already been decided,” Jordan said.

"In my view, the penalty was a mistake. He clearly did allow Kimi Raikkonen pass him and clearly Raikkonen's car was not as good. Everybody in the business knows that the Ferrari in wet or cold conditions is nowhere close to the McLaren - so why should Hamilton lose out because of the circumstances like they were?

"We need to be careful that we don't take the passing movements out [of F1]. They're already sparse enough without actually making sure that the drivers no longer take the responsibility in passing.

"There is little enough excitement in some of the races, so we need to make sure the future of good ones are protected.”

However, despite taking Hamilton’s side over the incident in Spa, Jordan believes that the championship leader is doing himself no favours with the powers that be at the moment.

"If I wanted to be critical of Hamilton, he put himself in a position at the Bus Stop whereby had he taken the normal line - Raikkonen was leading - had he followed Raikkonen through, would he have had the momentum to carry him through and pass at La Source? In my view, yes he would. So why did he need to [cut the chicane]?

"The McLaren is phenomenal in those conditions. There was no chance that the Ferrari was ever going to hold him behind [for too long more]. For me, was Hamilton too hasty. Perhaps, a touch.

"But then you don't know what is going through a driver's mind in those circumstances. I would protect him in this case and support him. I think he was hard done by.

"Having said that, it has to be borne in mind that this is the fifth time that he's been done by with some form of penalty this year and, being perfectly honest, all previous four were clear cut cases against him.

"He's possibly frustrated about last year and doesn't want the same thing to happen. If I was his team boss, I'd call him aside and say: 'Lewis, you're the best person in the car. Be very calm, be confident in your own ability but you don't need to do things you don't have to do'.”

Asked if he believes there is a conspiracy against either McLaren or Hamilton, Jordan replied: "Truthfully, I don't.

"If you take the situation where he blocked somebody [in qualifying], it was clear. He paid the penalty. If you don't turn up on time, you pay the fine. In Montreal, he ran into the back of Raikkonen going through a red light, so that was clear too.

“We can all get carried away with this - the euphoria of this brilliant, brilliant young driver - as he's British and everybody wants to see him win the world title. But we must not get carried away with 'they have it in for us'. I do not believe that is the case.

"It's the easiest form of defeat in my view. He's a huge talent and everything he does reminds me of the greatest drivers like Michael Schumacher - he's absolutely brilliant.

"But we must make sure we are not circumventing rules to make sure he wins it. He is great but he needs to take a little bit of stock now and again and bring a little bit of humility to his form. He will do it in his own time, instead of having to rush it.”


Eddie makes a lot of sense I must say :thumbup:
User avatar
By Matkins
#67634
First of all great post Onelapdown. Are you a lawyer?

But just a few words on what Eddie Jordan said. Most people who suspect that the FIA are biased against McLaren don't argue that the previous penalties awared this year to McLaren were unjustified. Most of them were clear cut and worthy of punishment. Its other things like the shear unprecidented magnitude of the punishment issued to the team last year for something which was ultimately out of their control and was the fault of a Ferrari employee as much as it was a McLaren employee. And the more recent incident where McLaren were misguided by Whiting, who by precedent, tells teams the right course of action mid race if they want to avoid penalty. And we've seen this inumerable times over the years, we see it for Alonso in 05, we even see it for Massa at the last race in Monza. Why is this guidence from a race official there for some and not for all? I think there is plenty evidence to raise an eyebrow over.

And finaly i just love it when people suggest Hamilton was too hasty. Does any racing driver tell themselves "i mustn't be too hasty"..? Perhaps David Coulthard does, no offence to any of his fans.
User avatar
By bud
#67636
Eddie just ignores alot of discrepancies and its easy to overlook them if you want to keep your head in the sand
he ignores the fact during the race McLaren did everything in their control to ensure they were not penalised by asking for clarification by the race director! they were not given the opportunity to tell Lewis you will be looked at after the race if you dont give back the position for the second time!

Eddie over looks the conduct of the FIA in regards to the Scott Andrews email falsifying statements in readiness for their inadmissible decision which with the email would say they had their mind made up in advance.

Because of this email and Scott Andrews disclaiming it as his words they then made up a new rule in which the Luizzi incident was not protested by any other team, so ofcourse Ferrari do not want to give McLaren the lead in the drivers title by 7 points nor by 1 point in the constructors they stuck their nose in a matter that should only have been dealt with by McLaren and the FIA

this whole saga just goes to show how sad F1 is and added to the fact this and every other F1 forum or site has more news and discussion on politics, a drivers quotes, a drivers ego and any other off track BS instead of things that actually should matter to a real fan of F1 and for racing for that matter!

and by the way the REAL championship points for the top 2 are as follows.

Constructor title
McLaren 133
Ferrari 132

Drivers title
Hamilton 82
Massa 75
#67640
Because of this email and Scott Andrews disclaiming it as his words they then made up a new rule in which the Luizzi incident was not protested by any other team, so ofcourse Ferrari do not want to give McLaren the lead in the drivers title by 7 points nor by 1 point in the constructors they stuck their nose in a matter that should only have been dealt with by McLaren and the FIA


Euhmm...can you blame them, after what happened last year ... you know, with that copymachine and stuff ... :rolleyes::D
User avatar
By bud
#67641
Because of this email and Scott Andrews disclaiming it as his words they then made up a new rule in which the Luizzi incident was not protested by any other team, so ofcourse Ferrari do not want to give McLaren the lead in the drivers title by 7 points nor by 1 point in the constructors they stuck their nose in a matter that should only have been dealt with by McLaren and the FIA


Euhmm...can you blame them, after what happened last year ... you know, with that copymachine and stuff ... :rolleyes::D


has nothing to do with last years BS which might i add Ferrari worked that to a tea as well, seems they find no dishonour in racing in the court rooms :thumbdown:
#67642
Because of this email and Scott Andrews disclaiming it as his words they then made up a new rule in which the Luizzi incident was not protested by any other team, so ofcourse Ferrari do not want to give McLaren the lead in the drivers title by 7 points nor by 1 point in the constructors they stuck their nose in a matter that should only have been dealt with by McLaren and the FIA


Euhmm...can you blame them, after what happened last year ... you know, with that copymachine and stuff ... :rolleyes::D


has nothing to do with last years BS which might i add Ferrari worked that to a tea as well, seems they find no dishonour in racing in the court rooms :thumbdown:


Pfff...ohay, whatever. :wavey:
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