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[AKR]

A message to everyone that has posted along these lines:-
- The rule exists
- I accept the inuendo/inconclusive evidence that a team order was given
- Ferrari and their drivers should loose those the points.

Now that the WMSC, in their decision has accepted Ferrari's submission that Team Orders were used in the past. Ferrari specifically documented Germany 2008 Lewser and HK. Therefore it is now confirmed that Lewser used team orders to pass HK in Germany 08.

Given this, every person who posted that Ferrari and its drivers should loose points, must now agree that Lewser is not the 2008 World Champion, and that Felipe is the rightful 2008 world champion.

Yes I remember that race, McLaren used team Orders to allow HK to give the postion to Lewis or like you nicely put it Lewser. Pretend HK is a lot slower than Lewser and then it isn't a team order. But I have always wondered how a guy in the same car who is capable of at least staying at the front and has no car problems actually be 5 seconds slower. Clearly it was McLaren's way at dodging the no team orders rule. And did any Ferrari fans protest? I certainily didn't. As always it seems that only when Ferrari does something that other do not like, all the Ferrari jealois haters come out of their closets.

[AKR]

A message to everyone that has posted along these lines:-
- The rule exists
- I accept the inuendo/inconclusive evidence that a team order was given
- Ferrari and their drivers should loose those the points.

Now that the WMSC, in their decision has accepted Ferrari's submission that Team Orders were used in the past. Ferrari specifically documented Germany 2008 Lewser and HK. Therefore it is now confirmed that Lewser used team orders to pass HK in Germany 08.

Given this, every person who posted that Ferrari and its drivers should loose points, must now agree that Lewser is not the 2008 World Champion, and that Felipe is the rightful 2008 world champion.

Please use the drivers correct name, your comments are inflammatory and will not be tolerated!

I knew that post would touch a nerve, but the fact is, there is a lot of bleating and complaining about Germany 2010, but, the truth that everyone knows is that Felipe is the real WDC for 2008. I'm simply stating it should be made official.

But Lewis Hamilton was robbed of four points at Spa Francorchamps 2008 when he was given a post race 25 second penalty dropping him to third for gaining an advantage by cutting a corner despite giving the position back to Raikkonen only to take the position back going into La Source. The rules state that if a position is gained by cutting a corner, that position needs to be relinquished to the driver passed by cutting a corner, which Hamilton did, there was no rule that states the driver that cut the corner and gained an advantage must wait for a number of corners before attempting to pass again! Again the inconsistent stewardship cost a driver dear. Bottom line is if Hamilton was not penalised for following the rulebook, he would have still won the championship even if HK didn't let him pass!

PS: I am not a Lewis Hamilton fan, but I like to see fair play; which is sadly unforthcoming with the inconsistent stewardship in F1!

don't have an issue with team orders per-se; it's more how their implemented; using team orders when one driver is 38 points ahead at race 11 of 20 is unnecessary and detrimental to the sport and damages the reputation of the sport further. If one driver has very little chance of winning the title after say 15 or 16 races out of 20 then it makes sense to use team orders. Uneducated fans or not; they are the ones that put their hard earned cash down and attend races; people will not bother attending if they believe that they are going to see a sham race, without the fans, the sport is literally nothing; many fans see the FIA as taking them for fools!

Yes, you do have valid points.
They way they are implemented should be not detrimental to the sport in general... but perhaps the problem is in how some want to make team orders seem as an evil curse inherited from the ice ages striking modern F1 once a decade; when it fact its perfectly reasonable and happens all the time in many different ways.

The other issue is: at which point or under which circumstances can they be "accepted" as reasonable...
Lets say last yr after Massa got injured... according to the rule the team should not have used team orders to pull in favour of Kimi... hmmm something's definitely wrong. The rule itelf does not consider timing or circunstances around it. Teams dont look for "very little" or "very good chance", they go for straight numbers: what will be the immediate best result? The teams face the situation, weights pros-cons and make decisions based on the collective interest at the moment. Always. All the teams.

Other than that... how to regulated it to make it fair for everyone involved while not being insulting to the fans or teams... now that's the puzzle.

Team orders; are they evil? NO! But at the same time they do deprive the fans of what they want to see; e.g. wheel to wheel racing; back in the early 90s; the racing was great, team mates going wheel to wheel until one driver is out of the hunt; drivers had the ability to go wheel to wheel without crashing back then; why do drivers not have that ability now? In my opinion, team orders should not come into play until at least 70 -75% of the season has passed unless extenuating circumstances exist like a driver gets injured and a replacement comes in mid-season or one driver is more than four race wins behind. Just a few suggestions; I don't like teams that have clear #1 and #2 drivers swapping positions in the first half of the season without reason! Yes it is a tricky situation but having teams free to implement team orders from the outset is not good!

And had it been know not one year after the fact that Renault cheated in Singapore 2008 (Crash Gate) which caused a massive alteration in the race result, that race's points would of been annulled for all drivers and constructors and Massa would of been the 2008 champion.

[AKR]

Spankyham Didn't kimi move aside for massa in japan 08 ? Didn't massa and kimi trade places in brazil 07? By your reasoning we should give the 07 title to Lewis!

There's a logical argument then there's emotional driven bullpoo, you posted with the latter!

And you are good at picking up the bullshitt comments because you are the king of writing them of course.

[spankyham]

Spankyham Didn't kimi move aside for massa in japan 08 ? Didn't massa and kimi trade places in brazil 07? By your reasoning we should give the 07 title to Lewis!

There's a logical argument then there's emotional driven bullpoo, you posted with the latter!

And you are good at picking up the bullshitt comments because you are the king of writing them of course.

I also answered this post earlier by pointing out that HK moved over for Lewis not only in Germany, but also in France and England. Meaning, if you believe the points should have been deducted, that Felipe is the WDC for 2008 - even leaving aside Singapore.

[bud]

Spankyham Didn't kimi move aside for massa in japan 08 ? Didn't massa and kimi trade places in brazil 07? By your reasoning we should give the 07 title to Lewis!

There's a logical argument then there's emotional driven bullpoo, you posted with the latter!

And you are good at picking up the bullshitt comments because you are the king of writing them of course.

Then youre my queen!

[AKR]

Spankyham Didn't kimi move aside for massa in japan 08 ? Didn't massa and kimi trade places in brazil 07? By your reasoning we should give the 07 title to Lewis!

There's a logical argument then there's emotional driven bullpoo, you posted with the latter!

And you are good at picking up the bullshitt comments because you are the king of writing them of course.

Then youre my queen!

Ok then bud, I will be your queen. Please take me to your castle.

[Hammer278]

Wow. What's next? Angry umpalumpa? LOL

Anyway, if team orders are back on...we would have the top teams looking into hiring 'naturale' No.1 and No.2s. Kinda like what Ferrari has been doing all along anyway.

We would have 1 driver from each team competing for the WDC. Truebreds who have some ego and pride would quit the sport (Like Montoya did - though he quit due to duckling) and we'll be left with a few stars with some GP2 drivers as teammates to just rack in points every race. F1 would be a complete joke!!

SIMPLE solution - Scrap team orders, have random checks of whats said on the radio after races...no warning before the race. If there are place changes between teammates after a message from the team - DSQ. No mercy. No "save fuel" nonsense, no "hes faster" nonsense, no nothing. Radio is used to communicate for pitting purpose, repairs, race strategies which have nothing to do with your teammate!

If the argument is "team sport" then please, lets scrap the WDC, its irrelevant!

[spankyham]

I am quite puzzled,how can Alonso ever call himself champion ?I thought that accolade was bestowed upon the best driver,but it will always be remembered
that he wasn't good enough to pass his team mate,who had to slow down to let him pass.

Actually you're right, Fernando can't call himself a champion, he has to call himself a "double champion".

I guess being a double world champion goes along with his numerous other accolades like being considered the "best of all current F1 drivers" in a survey of the current F1 drivers http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/6269395/-Senna-s-the-best-Nico-s-the-prettiest-

I'd also agree with you also that Felipe is a great driver.

Thanks for reminding us all how great Ferrari's drivers are - you're a little gem.

[spankyham]

Wow. What's next? Angry umpalumpa? LOL

Anyway, if team orders are back on...we would have the top teams looking into hiring 'naturale' No.1 and No.2s. Kinda like what Ferrari has been doing all along anyway.

We would have 1 driver from each team competing for the WDC. Truebreds who have some ego and pride would quit the sport (Like Montoya did - though he quit due to duckling) and we'll be left with a few stars with some GP2 drivers as teammates to just rack in points every race. F1 would be a complete joke!!

SIMPLE solution - Scrap team orders, have random checks of whats said on the radio after races...no warning before the race. If there are place changes between teammates after a message from the team - DSQ. No mercy. No "save fuel" nonsense, no "hes faster" nonsense, no nothing. Radio is used to communicate for pitting purpose, repairs, race strategies which have nothing to do with your teammate!

If the argument is "team sport" then please, lets scrap the WDC, its irrelevant!

There is one fact you cannot change, F1 is a "team" sport. You can deride other team members in anyway you like, call them second rate, but they are part of the team and they are team mates. And the next irrefutable is that the whole team, ie all members must try and achieve the prime goal at every race of the "team" winning. And, yes, that means working together.

You could try suggesting to other teams that they could have one great player and the rest can be 2nd rate, but, I'm sure that if you suggested that at Old Trafford you'd find yourself out the gates in a few moments flat. And, as for trying to tell Sir Alex that he can't give his players instructions - well good luck to you on that one.

I guess if you really believe the WDC had no relevance if teams orders are allowed, then you'll also be calling for the end to the Golder Boot and FIFA Footballer of the Year awards -

[racechick]

Alonso's made too many mistakes to be considered the best driver, even with help he lags behind.

[spankyham]

Alonso's made too many mistakes to be considered the best driver, even with help he lags behind.

Too many facts/sources/examples in this post.
I guess we can all have our opinions, it's great knowing that the current F1 drivers pick Alonso as the best amongst them - I tend to think their opinion is worth a little more

[AKR]

Alonso's made too many mistakes to be considered the best driver, even with help he lags behind.

Well I wouldn't consider Hamilton the best either. He is just one lucky prick. Even at Spa this year, he goes off road and simply misses hitting the wall, comes back on the track and wins. But when Alonso loses it he actually hits something and is out. I hope Hamilton goes off and out in Monza. The crowd will love it as will I.

[racechick]

Alonso's made too many mistakes to be considered the best driver, even with help he lags behind.

Well I wouldn't consider Hamilton the best either. He is just one lucky prick. Even at Spa this year, he goes off road and simply misses hitting the wall, comes back on the track and wins. But when Alonso loses it he actually hits something and is out. I hope Hamilton goes off and out in Monza. The crowd will love it as will I.

He's had bad luck I agree, otherwise he'd be waaaaaaaaaaay ahead in the championship, but mistakes???Hes made less than the other title contenders.

[spankyham]

Alonso's made too many mistakes to be considered the best driver, even with help he lags behind.

Well I wouldn't consider Hamilton the best either. He is just one lucky prick. Even at Spa this year, he goes off road and simply misses hitting the wall, comes back on the track and wins. But when Alonso loses it he actually hits something and is out. I hope Hamilton goes off and out in Monza. The crowd will love it as will I.

He's had bad luck I agree, otherwise he'd be waaaaaaaaaaay ahead in the championship, but mistakes???Hes made less than the other title contenders.

I tend to think Lewis has done the most wrong things. I think he's had 2 warnings, passed a SC (when he could see the complete back of the car and it was the 2nd time he's done that), hit Vettel twice, ran off and lost it, hmm that's a pretty out of control list for one season from where I sit. And then there's his off track activities bringing F1 into disrepute such as being a convicted "hoon" in the year the FiA is trying to promote road safety. Had his fellow Brit, Charlie Whiting, the Race Director for those races, given him actual penalties he'd probably be way back in the championship race.

[racechick]

Alonso's made too many mistakes to be considered the best driver, even with help he lags behind.

Well I wouldn't consider Hamilton the best either. He is just one lucky prick. Even at Spa this year, he goes off road and simply misses hitting the wall, comes back on the track and wins. But when Alonso loses it he actually hits something and is out. I hope Hamilton goes off and out in Monza. The crowd will love it as will I.

He's had bad luck I agree, otherwise he'd be waaaaaaaaaaay ahead in the championship, but mistakes???Hes made less than the other title contenders.

I tend to think Lewis has done the most wrong things. I think he's had 2 warnings, passed a SC (when he could see the complete back of the car and it was the 2nd time he's done that), hit Vettel twice, ran off and lost it, hmm that's a pretty out of control list for one season from where I sit. And then there's his off track activities bringing F1 into disrepute such as being a convicted "hoon" in the year the FiA is trying to promote road safety. Had his fellow Brit, Charlie Whiting, the Race Director for those races, given him actual penalties he'd probably be way back in the championship race.

He's passed the safety car and he crashed in a practise session. Thats it. Take the glasses off