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[What's Burning?]

Alonso, Kimi and Vettel are better than Lewis.

Kimi and Vettel?

Don't laugh, it's his opinion. I'm sorry, I had to chuckle too. I think f1ea just likes to give things a shake here and there.

[andrew]

Anyway, to get back to the topic - 2012 Singapore GP - looking at the weather forecast could could be a damp track at the start.

Singapore Weather Forecast

Is it worth the past few pages being put in the Lewis Hamilton support thread seeing as it's moved away from his prospects for the Singapore GP?

[vaptin]

The way I think of Alonso is this: An F1 car is worth millions, if you're going to trust someone to drive it, it'll be Alonso. His greatest strengths are his reliability and consistency. Being able to understand the long game, biding his time and calculating when it's worth it to take a risk.

F1 for most drivers has been up and down, Alonso is in the lead, because there haven't really been times when he couldn't switch on the tyres, or couldn't cope with the cars behaviour. Even at the start of the season, you could see him constantly correcting and manually straightening out the bolting horse.

He's so committed to winning, even in a poorish car he'll keep on fighting for points and positions, but not overdoing it and taking too much life out of the tyres or making risky overtakes.

That's also what I mean by him maturing, he has been admitting the car is poor etc. but not acting as hotheaded as the past, not arguing with his team, I think being made number 1 really helps with all that though. It takes the pressure off, the driver doesn't need to keep looking across the garage or feel like he is auditioning.

Alonso is in the lead because he's had one DNF as opposed to multiple DNFs for the other challengers, Alonso is in the lead because he's made the most of when things went bad, unlike some of his competitors. Alonso is in the lead, because he's won three races, showing that like Kimi, has no DNFs but has been consistent like Alonso, you still NEED to win races to score the big points.

Alonso is not only driving well, arguably the best he's driven in his career, but the cards have gone his way, to the point of GAINING on the second placed challenger in Spa even though he didn't finish the race. You can't ask for more than that!

Sure, but a lot of that is down to the reliability of Ferrari this year, which takes us back to the argument that the best performing driver still needs the car to preform in, which makes F1 a team sport, but you can still haven individuals who contribute massively to the team, even if they still rely on team members helping them out.

Anyway, you described more specifically I was referring to the traits I think Alonso has shown that have lead to the specifics.

Yes Alonso has had luck, but he's also been in the position to benefit from that luck. Even at Spa, Hamilton had the wrong rear wing or some other problem, so it was Button who got pole, so the McLaren could clearly do it, in which case Hamilton would have been no-where near Grosjean at the start. And Webber had a bad race, getting overtaken by Vettel who had gone for a high downforce setup.

[vlad]

When exactly did he 'blow' a championship away? His rookie year? Oh what a crime...did the other 3 come close to it in their rookie years? Or maybe you're talking about 2011? Did the car even deserve to be competing for the WDC, it's up for argument. That was the year Redbull almost gave the championships away.

Don't forget that Lewis also had the benefit of driving for one of the best teams in his rookie year unlike Vettel, Alonso and Raikkonen in their rookie years, Vettel started at BMW/Sauber, Raikkonen at Sauber (pre BMW) and Alonso at Minardi... if they all started in a McLaren, maybe they would have won titles in their rookie years?

Nicely said!

[What's Burning?]

When exactly did he 'blow' a championship away? His rookie year? Oh what a crime...did the other 3 come close to it in their rookie years? Or maybe you're talking about 2011? Did the car even deserve to be competing for the WDC, it's up for argument. That was the year Redbull almost gave the championships away.

Don't forget that Lewis also had the benefit of driving for one of the best teams in his rookie year unlike Vettel, Alonso and Raikkonen in their rookie years, Vettel started at BMW/Sauber, Raikkonen at Sauber (pre BMW) and Alonso at Minardi... if they all started in a McLaren, maybe they would have won titles in their rookie years?

Don't forget that Hamilton had the misfortune of racing against a two time world champion as his team mate, and nearly beat him if not his youthful rookie exuberance.

[myownalias]

When exactly did he 'blow' a championship away? His rookie year? Oh what a crime...did the other 3 come close to it in their rookie years? Or maybe you're talking about 2011? Did the car even deserve to be competing for the WDC, it's up for argument. That was the year Redbull almost gave the championships away.

Don't forget that Lewis also had the benefit of driving for one of the best teams in his rookie year unlike Vettel, Alonso and Raikkonen in their rookie years, Vettel started at BMW/Sauber, Raikkonen at Sauber (pre BMW) and Alonso at Minardi... if they all started in a McLaren, maybe they would have won titles in their rookie years?

Don't forget that Hamilton had the misfortune of racing against a two time world champion as his team mate, and nearly beat him if not his youthful rookie exuberance.

Irrelevant; the point that Hammer was making is that none of the other drivers have come close to winning titles in their rookie year, BMW, Sauber and Minardi were never title contenders.

[What's Burning?]

When exactly did he 'blow' a championship away? His rookie year? Oh what a crime...did the other 3 come close to it in their rookie years? Or maybe you're talking about 2011? Did the car even deserve to be competing for the WDC, it's up for argument. That was the year Redbull almost gave the championships away.

Don't forget that Lewis also had the benefit of driving for one of the best teams in his rookie year unlike Vettel, Alonso and Raikkonen in their rookie years, Vettel started at BMW/Sauber, Raikkonen at Sauber (pre BMW) and Alonso at Minardi... if they all started in a McLaren, maybe they would have won titles in their rookie years?

Don't forget that Hamilton had the misfortune of racing against a two time world champion as his team mate, and nearly beat him if not his youthful rookie exuberance.

Irrelevant; the point that Hammer was making is that none of the other drivers have come close to winning titles in their rookie year, BMW, Sauber and Minardi were never title contenders.

But of course it's relevant. It's relevant in the same fashion the argument you're making is relevant. Maybe Lewis would have won in those mid field cars? Going back to would have could have should have is always a slippery slope, that's why it's best to stick with verifiable facts, not suppositions, on either side of the argument.

[Hammer278]

When exactly did he 'blow' a championship away? His rookie year? Oh what a crime...did the other 3 come close to it in their rookie years? Or maybe you're talking about 2011? Did the car even deserve to be competing for the WDC, it's up for argument. That was the year Redbull almost gave the championships away.

Don't forget that Lewis also had the benefit of driving for one of the best teams in his rookie year unlike Vettel, Alonso and Raikkonen in their rookie years, Vettel started at BMW/Sauber, Raikkonen at Sauber (pre BMW) and Alonso at Minardi... if they all started in a McLaren, maybe they would have won titles in their rookie years?

If maybe's and if's were real, we'd all have a Merry Christmas!

My point being, you can't compare Lewis to these guys like for like....Lewis did a fantastic job in his rookie year coming so close, no one will know if the others could do as well or better, it's a moot point not worth thinking about. But rating them higher than Lewis based on this is just stupidity, period.

[myownalias]

When exactly did he 'blow' a championship away? His rookie year? Oh what a crime...did the other 3 come close to it in their rookie years? Or maybe you're talking about 2011? Did the car even deserve to be competing for the WDC, it's up for argument. That was the year Redbull almost gave the championships away.

Don't forget that Lewis also had the benefit of driving for one of the best teams in his rookie year unlike Vettel, Alonso and Raikkonen in their rookie years, Vettel started at BMW/Sauber, Raikkonen at Sauber (pre BMW) and Alonso at Minardi... if they all started in a McLaren, maybe they would have won titles in their rookie years?

Don't forget that Hamilton had the misfortune of racing against a two time world champion as his team mate, and nearly beat him if not his youthful rookie exuberance.

Irrelevant; the point that Hammer was making is that none of the other drivers have come close to winning titles in their rookie year, BMW, Sauber and Minardi were never title contenders.

But of course it's relevant. It's relevant in the same fashion the argument you're making is relevant. Maybe Lewis would have won in those mid field cars? Going back to would have could have should have is always a slippery slope, that's why it's best to stick with verifiable facts, not suppositions, on either side of the argument.

If Lewis could have won or even come close to winning a title in a Minardi, I would happily hail him as the best driver ever in the history of the sport!

We may not be talking of absolutes but there is a insanely high degree of improbability that Lewis could have won a drivers title in a Sauber, BMW or Minardi!

My point being, you can't compare Lewis to these guys like for like....Lewis did a fantastic job in his rookie year coming so close, no one will know if the others could do as well or better, it's a moot point not worth thinking about. But rating them higher than Lewis based on this is just stupidity, period.

Agreed; it's the same as comparing, Fangio to (Ayrton) Senna to Hamilton, I believe the three best drivers in F1 right now to be Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel.

[Hammer278]

When exactly did he 'blow' a championship away? His rookie year? Oh what a crime...did the other 3 come close to it in their rookie years? Or maybe you're talking about 2011? Did the car even deserve to be competing for the WDC, it's up for argument. That was the year Redbull almost gave the championships away.

Don't forget that Lewis also had the benefit of driving for one of the best teams in his rookie year unlike Vettel, Alonso and Raikkonen in their rookie years, Vettel started at BMW/Sauber, Raikkonen at Sauber (pre BMW) and Alonso at Minardi... if they all started in a McLaren, maybe they would have won titles in their rookie years?

Don't forget that Hamilton had the misfortune of racing against a two time world champion as his team mate, and nearly beat him if not his youthful rookie exuberance.

Irrelevant; the point that Hammer was making is that none of the other drivers have come close to winning titles in their rookie year, BMW, Sauber and Minardi were never title contenders.

But of course it's relevant. It's relevant in the same fashion the argument you're making is relevant. Maybe Lewis would have won in those mid field cars? Going back to would have could have should have is always a slippery slope, that's why it's best to stick with verifiable facts, not suppositions, on either side of the argument.

If Lewis could have won or even come close to winning a title in a Minardi, I would happily hail him as the best driver ever in the history of the sport!

We may not be talking of absolutes but there is a insanely high degree of improbability that Lewis could have won a drivers title in a Sauber, BMW or Minardi!

........and likewise! The others were not in Lewis' position, so what gives you any basis to compare them? None! F1ea on the other hand has it all figured out and thinks Lewis is the 4th best driver on the field because of 'throwing away the WDC' in his rookie year.

[What's Burning?]

there is a insanely high degree of improbability that Lewis could have won a drivers title in a Sauber

AHA! But you're not denying the possibility!
I was making a point about the pointlessness of arguing in the past. We're so good at that here. What were we arguing about again?

[vaptin]

I'm informed Luca Badoer almost scored points in a Minardi, it was such a big achievement that when the car broke down he was crying. Although some will argue that proves the Minardi was insanely quick if Badoer got to a point scoring position in it.

[What's Burning?]

This place would be so much better if it served beer.

[andrew]

I'm informed Luca Badoer almost scored points in a Minardi, it was such a big achievement that when the car broke down he was crying. Although some will argue that proves the Minardi was insanely quick if Badoer got to a point scoring position in it.

Yeah but how many finishers were there in that race?

[Hammer278]

I'm informed Luca Badoer almost scored points in a Minardi, it was such a big achievement that when the car broke down he was crying. Although some will argue that proves the Minardi was insanely quick if Badoer got to a point scoring position in it.

Hardyharhar....so how many cars actually finished this race again? You're putting words into my mouth now, it all depends on the situation and as we can clearly see since Barcelona, the Ferrari IS capable of podiums and 1 driver is doing what he's paid to do - get the most out of the machinery. Fullstop.