FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[MAD MAX]

Good old Felippe, he's just chucked a gallon of unleaded onto the fire pmsl http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 572580.ece
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sp ... Massa.html

Do you realise that the Times link is dated 2005?

Oops, only meant to put the one from the Sun up, well spotted

[McLaren Fan]

Personally I think the statement by the FIA makes a number of good points.

Yes, some of what they say is completely absurd, but so does some of the things FOTA are saying.

I agree to a large extent. Some of the ideas FOTA have come up with have been pretty shocking, too. That said, I agree with a lot more of what FOTA have to say than the FIA.

The FIA statement is also distorting the issue in several different areas. For instance, FOTA is agreed on costs needing to be cut; it's just the level of those costs which is the stumbling block. The FIA are also being pretty disingenuous about the openness of the technical regulations. The regulations this year are different, but not more open, and there are no plans from the FIA about allowing more technical freedom for engineers.

[myownalias]

The rumours of some of the teams you mentioned leaving F1 are more to do with the current FIA governance than of the cost. FOTA has cost reduction measures in place which they would adopt in their own championship. With the right governance then they will stay.

But think about it, Mosely is using the current global financial climate(but that wont last forever) as justification for his personal crusade. Teams willing to spend big money to compete in the pinnacle of motorsports will come again just as they did in the early 2000s. Until then i can see FOTAs series running 3 car teams! And it will be a step above the FIA F1, with the best teams best drivers and best cars! which means the fans!

BMW and Toyota corporate have been talking of pulling funding from their F1 teams well before budget-cap-gate (more to do with lack of results than money), Renault is a new addition so that could be attributed to budget-cap-gate. Nobody knows what will happen with the economic climate; we can only wait and see; I agree that a £40m cap is very much a knee-jerk reaction to Honda's departure and the whole situation has been handled badly by all sides, ultimately a split isn't good for anyone concerned; least of all the fans. I am in favour of the budget cap in principle but not £40m; right now I would just like to see an end to this feud!

I'm not gonna argue in Max's favour anymore as he obviously doesn't have the balls to follow through with his threats... have another two weeks, have another week to decide!

[EwanM]

Formula One can be a fickle old game sometimes. Let it be known that neither side is whiter than white. The FIA needs to be reformed and needs to be modernised. Proposing the teams sign up without guarantees is not on. However change in the Governing body will only happen if there is a united front. Mosley won't survive forever (if he is truely the real problem.)

However I do agree, the FIA's technical openess is very vague, but at least it is a start. I still believe that they could be a fully functioning governing body, ready to make the crucial decisions in the day to day running of the sport and securing it's future.

The proposals from both sides have significant strengths and weaknesses. I've always said that £40mil budget cap is far too low and that the FIA need to clarify their technical proposals instead of leaving it open to every loophole under the sun.
However, on the otherhand, FOTA's ideas are hardly brilliant. Instead of being true racers (Imo) they want to put all their money into crappy little simulators. Nothing can beat real track running - something FOTA want to get rid of in it's near entirity!

Let's say for a minute a breakaway series is created. Would it really be able to last 5 years without some sort of chaos?

Remember FOTA may be united against a common foe at the moment, but once this enemy is removed they could quite easily turn on each other. One team will always try to bend the rules and upset the other. The heads of FOTA are also quite single minded. How can the likes Ferrari's Man from Del Monte, be held a hero when his team have been at the thick end of harsh criticism? Remember they were in on the act too with the FIA up until now. Why are held as heroes now because they got to the table and found all the good cake was gone?

People talk about breakaway series, but who would actually compete in it? I believe Brawn will end up following Williams lead before long and signing up this Friday. Leaving the car companies.

So that leaves, Ferrari, Mclaren, Toyota, Red Bull, BMW and Renault. Out of that list I can only see two teams which would remain in a series in the long haul. FOTA's proposals couldn't prevent the likes of Toyota or Renault (who are let's face it up the shitter in terms of the bigger picture) from pulling out.
The FIA acted wisely to try and bring in new teams, manufacturers cannot be expected to remain in the sport for the long term, the teams that exist purely for racing can - and will remain in the FIA Formula One World Championship.

[GarethStr]

Formula One can be a fickle old game sometimes. Let it be known that neither side is whiter than white. The FIA needs to be reformed and needs to be modernised. Proposing the teams sign up without guarantees is not on. However change in the Governing body will only happen if there is a united front. Mosley won't survive forever (if he is truely the real problem.)

However I do agree, the FIA's technical openess is very vague, but at least it is a start. I still believe that they could be a fully functioning governing body, ready to make the crucial decisions in the day to day running of the sport and securing it's future.

The proposals from both sides have significant strengths and weaknesses. I've always said that £40mil budget cap is far too low and that the FIA need to clarify their technical proposals instead of leaving it open to every loophole under the sun.
However, on the otherhand, FOTA's ideas are hardly brilliant. Instead of being true racers (Imo) they want to put all their money into crappy little simulators. Nothing can beat real track running - something FOTA want to get rid of in it's near entirity!

Let's say for a minute a breakaway series is created. Would it really be able to last 5 years without some sort of chaos?

Remember FOTA may be united against a common foe at the moment, but once this enemy is removed they could quite easily turn on each other. One team will always try to bend the rules and upset the other. The heads of FOTA are also quite single minded. How can the likes Ferrari's Man from Del Monte, be held a hero when his team have been at the thick end of harsh criticism? Remember they were in on the act too with the FIA up until now. Why are held as heroes now because they got to the table and found all the good cake was gone?

People talk about breakaway series, but who would actually compete in it? I believe Brawn will end up following Williams lead before long and signing up this Friday. Leaving the car companies.

So that leaves, Ferrari, Mclaren, Toyota, Red Bull, BMW and Renault. Out of that list I can only see two teams which would remain in a series in the long haul. FOTA's proposals couldn't prevent the likes of Toyota or Renault (who are let's face it up the shitter in terms of the bigger picture) from pulling out.
The FIA acted wisely to try and bring in new teams, manufacturers cannot be expected to remain in the sport for the long term, the teams that exist purely for racing can - and will remain in the FIA Formula One World Championship.

Does this site provide a word count feature

[texasmr2]

Sadly no! I think those whole page post with a link should only list the link and a short reference to the articles topic. I'm not referring to EwmanM's post ^ as he does write for the forum so he has all the power .

[GarethStr]

I actually agree with Ewan. I dont think that a breakaway series would be able to last. Also is that actually what any real formula one fans want?

For me I'd prefer the championship to stay as it is. Add new teams etc but a breakaway would be the end of formula one as we know it. Sponsorships would be stretched between the two series' and drivers too. With the lack of money going into each series the leader's would need to think of new ways to gain money lost through the split eg. higher ticket prices, having races where it provides more income like middle east. Also with two very similar series F1 would no longer be one of a kind which loses the attraction for some sponsors which would take money away from the sport.

I'm not sure how other people would like this sort of championship but I certainly don't want to see it.

[bud]

Sponsorships would be stretched between the two series' and drivers too.

we arent talking of a split of two groups of major teams, we are talking about all the teams including the most powerful team Ferrari continuing what we know as F1. And with all the teams comes all the sponsors. The FIA F1 will be the ones in need of sponsorship, not the breakaway or i think it should be called the (continuum series)

[EwanM]

Sadly no! I think those whole page post with a link should only list the link and a short reference to the articles topic. I'm not referring to EwmanM's post ^ as he does write for the forum so he has all the power .

LOL sadly it wasn't an article, it was more of me ranting lol

[stonemonkey]

FIA President Max Mosley issued an ultimatum to the teams calling on them to drop their conditional entries by 19 June, and he indicated he was prepared to make some concessions such as increasing the budget cap to 100 million euros.

What will the new teams think of that? that's not what they signed up for.

[McLaren Fan]

From F1 Live:

F1's ‘rebel’ FOTA members have moved to end the standoff with the FIA by devising a final offer of compromise, it emerged on Wednesday.

With Friday looming as yet another crunch deadline, the association - comprised of every current team except Williams and Force India - wrote to Max Mosley with a proposal to resolve the dispute over the budget cap rules.

"The time has come when, in the interests of the sport, we must all seek to compromise and bring an urgent conclusion to the protracted debate regarding the 2010 world championship," the letter read, according to Reuters.

"We hope that you will consider that this letter represents significant movement by the teams, all of whom have clearly stated a willingness to commit to the sport until the end of 2012," it added.

In the letter, FOTA proposes that the budget cap - now called ‘resource restriction’ - be policed by a group of independent accountants of their choosing, with annual results submitted to the FIA.

"We can see no reason why such a system based on objective verification of compliance would not be acceptable to all parties," the letter read.

FIA President Max Mosley had agreed to soften the 2010 cap to 100m Euros, before it reduces to €45m/£40m in 2011.

FOTA is also seeking that Friday's deadline for finalising the 2010 entry list be extended for nearly another two weeks, to July 1st, so that a new Concorde Agreement can be negotiated and signed.

E.A. © CAPSIS International
Source: GMM

From F1 Live:

F1's crisis is creeping awkwardly towards a compromise after the FOTA rebels wrote to FIA President Max Mosley on Tuesday.

As already reported, the eight teams said they would agree to a budget cap - now called "resource restriction" - if it could be policed by a group of independent accountants.

"We have already offered to accept the report of a reputable auditor backed up by the signature of a main company board member," Mosley replied by letter on Wednesday.

He added, however, that a "fundamental problem" with FOTA's proposal is the "absence of a clear figure." Mosley has previously indicated that he would agree to a 100m euro cap in 2010, reducing to 45m in 2011.

FOTA asked that Friday's deadline for making their 2010 entries unconditional be extended until July 1st, but Mosley declined, arguing that the "remaining applicants" for places on the 2010 grid need to be informed "no later than Friday."

He also turned down FOTA's request for governance provisions changes in a renewed version of the 1998 Concorde Agreement, insisting that there is "not time left" for the necessary lengthy negotiations.

Mosley advised the teams to simply agree to extend the 1998 Concorde and then "we can negotiate a new 2009 Concorde Agreement under the protection of the 1998 arrangements."

FOTA said the teams want a judge's seat at the International Court of Appeal, but Mosley said this would require a change in the FIA Statutes.

"There are elements in your proposals which we may be able to agree to, but we need time to look at them," he wrote.

The FOTA members also said Cosworth should not be allowed to run its 2006-spec engines with a higher rev limit next year, but Mosley responded that the British firm has "neither the time nor the resources to retune for 2010" and claimed that in any case, the three new Cosworth-powered teams will not have "any competitive advantage whatsoever."

In short, Mosley remains firm that the teams need to make their 2010 entries unconditional by Friday.

"We propose that you accept the 2010 rules, as published (...) If necessary, these can be revised within the above governance procedures in due course," he wrote.

The FIA President also indicated that each team will shortly receive a letter. If signed and returned to the sport's governing body, Mosley's proposals will be made "legally binding and the relevant team's entry unconditional."

D.B. © CAPSIS International
Source: GMM

[myownalias]

It seems to me that FOTA are trying to delay further before signing up. Max needs to shut the teams out this Friday or else he might as well wave the white flag of surrender. I guess this is progress; it's just a shame that it's taken FOTA this long to put forward Mercedes' Norbert Haug's proposal of a €100 budget cap to the FIA, this could have been sorted by now if that was proposed two weeks ago! Although I believe that FOTA's clime-down from no cap is because some teams are considering entering unconditionally!

[billindenver]

A 100M cap this year that becomes a 60% cut next year and gives Max exactly the number he was looking to get (one year removed) is not a compromise on Max's part. The teams don't want 40M as a cap. They also don't want Max rummaging through their books. I personally very much hope they tell him to get stuffed tomorrow and form their own series. Max will lose TV time immediately, lose sponsorship and who wants to watch a bunch of no names on no budget run around the track in cars which are not the pinnacle of the sport...so he will lose audience as well. Max has been a wart on Formula 1's butt for quite a while now...if you can't get rid of him and his power hungry, money crazed crap...flush the series and move on.

Why should the teams carry the billions in debt that the current series has racked up anyway? I say let the Bernie/Max show fail...and then build it properly from the ashes.

[racechick]

A 100M cap this year that becomes a 60% cut next year and gives Max exactly the number he was looking to get (one year removed) is not a compromise on Max's part. The teams don't want 40M as a cap. They also don't want Max rummaging through their books. I personally very much hope they tell him to get stuffed tomorrow and form their own series. Max will lose TV time immediately, lose sponsorship and who wants to watch a bunch of no names on no budget run around the track in cars which are not the pinnacle of the sport...so he will lose audience as well. Max has been a wart on Formula 1's butt for quite a while now...if you can't get rid of him and his power hungry, money crazed crap...flush the series and move on.

Why should the teams carry the billions in debt that the current series has racked up anyway? I say let the Bernie/Max show fail...and then build it properly from the ashes.

Im off to the doctors tomorrow on the way down to Silverstone............because once again I am in agreement with you

[MrBeauJangles]

Let's say for a minute a breakaway series is created. Would it really be able to last 5 years without some sort of chaos?

Remember FOTA may be united against a common foe at the moment, but once this enemy is removed they could quite easily turn on each other. One team will always try to bend the rules and upset the other. The heads of FOTA are also quite single minded. How can the likes Ferrari's Man from Del Monte, be held a hero when his team have been at the thick end of harsh criticism? Remember they were in on the act too with the FIA up until now. Why are held as heroes now because they got to the table and found all the good cake was gone?

the new series could easily last 5 years without chaos as id predict within 5 years bernie would be finished, and the fia wouldve ousted mad max mosley. the current 8 fota teams are in motorsport to make money, and best understand how the sport should continue forward through this tough economic climate. that is what they are fighting for; their voice.

the fia is responsible for safety and technical regulations, not enticing new teams to enter the sport. that is the job of bernie, and bernie is a greedy bar steward. i say this with the greatest of ease because new teams could be easily lured to f1 if bernie simply doled out more money to the teams who competed, gained from the profits he makes from the series itself.

it was always known the role ferrari played with f1, and fota were ok with that as they were assured by ferrari that ferrari would always do right by the constructors, seeing the big picture. this is demonstrated by the current tussle that fia/fota are working through.

i think i echo the sentiments of many others here when i say, budget cap f1 and im done watching.