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[McLaren Fan]

fifth, that Hamas is a group of religious fanatics and political extremists - people with whom it's very tricky to reason;

A perfect description of the Jews as well

I'm no apologist for the Israelis. They are not entirely innocent in all of this either. That said, in recent times they have made efforts to compromise and there is a very, very big difference between Jews and organisations such as Hamas. The latter brainwash young children before their minds are fully formed to commit suicide bombings on innocent people.

[bernification]

fifth, that Hamas is a group of religious fanatics and political extremists - people with whom it's very tricky to reason;

A perfect description of the Jews as well

I'm no apologist for the Israelis. They are not entirely innocent in all of this either. That said, in recent times they have made efforts to compromise and there is a very, very big difference between Jews and organisations such as Hamas. The latter brainwash young children before their minds are fully formed to commit suicide bombings on innocent people.

How has Israel compromised?
In recent times, (1993) Arafat said he recognized Israel as a state, Rabin in responce, recognized the PLO as the Paestinian people's representative, and then effectively held Arafat under house arrest until his death (under threat of Israeli bombings/helicopter survailence
The Jewish State has continually taken land that is not theirs (regardless of the terms of the 1947 mandate, which is sketchy anyway, as I pointed out above, giving 55% of the land to people who previously owned 6% when they number 1/3 of the population and they are ethnically not from this area), and the world stands by and helps them do it.

How is blockading Gazza a compromise.

The former believe in their hearts, as they are indoctrinated from an early age, that they, solely they, are gods people, and that the 'gentiles are their at the Jews disposal. NO DIFFERENCE.

The reality is, America and Israel have forced 'democracy' on nations against their wills. Each time they do this, the nation in question votes for the party America and Israel least want in power. Do they not learn?

"Let's get up off our knees, stop cringing before bogeymen and virtual fathers, face reality, and help science to do something constructive about human suffering."
- Richard Dawkins

[McLaren Fan]

I cannot agree that Israel has not made some concessions in recent times. What you say about both the Palestinians and Jews being brainwashed in their respective faiths is true, but was not the point I was making. The most common sects of Judaism are far more easier to deal with than Hamas who are, to be frank, nut cases. I do agree with you about America: its hypocrisy and failure to learn from history stinks to high heaven. I also agree with you about religion: I think it's a load of rubbish.

[darwin dali]

"Let's get up off our knees, stop cringing before bogeymen and virtual fathers, face reality, and help science to do something constructive about human suffering."
- Richard Dawkins

One of my heroes

[bernification]

I cannot agree that Israel has not made some concessions in recent times. What you say about both the Palestinians and Jews being brainwashed in their respective faiths is true, but was not the point I was making. The most common sects of Judaism are far more easier to deal with than Hamas who are, to be frank, nut cases. I do agree with you about America: its hypocrisy and failure to learn from history stinks to high heaven. I also agree with you about religion: I think it's a load of rubbish.

I only think if you put people in desperate situations, well, they don't cover themselves in glory do they? I think that's why people like hamas behave as they do. They have lost everything, including hope.

Sharon did make concessions, by removing settlers from gaza and the west bank, and forming a centre party, but he became 'mysteriosly' incapacitated via a stroke, around the same time that he and Arafat were starting to make some ground on some form of a peace process. Arafat, also died in mysterious circumstances, at the same time.
Since both of them passed, the situation has declined; religious right take power, settlers take more land, Hamas doing the only thing they feel they can in the abscence of help, and then Israel taking more land.
I don't think it takes a genious to figure out that for some people it's better that their is no peace here, so American government (Bush and cohorts) pumps more money in to keep it's little police force in control, whilst they demonise anyone who isn't blue eyed, christian and european.
It genuinely is good to see the optimism of much of America now though. I just wish Obama would say something now. I hope he has something to say!

Not like this though.

"I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
- President George H.W. Bush Scary family

[darwin dali]

I cannot agree that Israel has not made some concessions in recent times. What you say about both the Palestinians and Jews being brainwashed in their respective faiths is true, but was not the point I was making. The most common sects of Judaism are far more easier to deal with than Hamas who are, to be frank, nut cases. I do agree with you about America: its hypocrisy and failure to learn from history stinks to high heaven. I also agree with you about religion: I think it's a load of rubbish.

I only think if you put people in desperate situations, well, they don't cover themselves in glory do they? I think that's why people like hamas behave as they do. They have lost everything, including hope.

Sharon did make concessions, by removing settlers from gaza and the west bank, and forming a centre party, but he became 'mysteriosly' incapacitated via a stroke, around the same time that he and Arafat were starting to make some ground on some form of a peace process. Arafat, also died in mysterious circumstances, at the same time.
Since both of them passed, the situation has declined; religious right take power, settlers take more land, Hamas doing the only thing they feel they can in the abscence of help, and then Israel taking more land.
I don't think it takes a genious to figure out that for some people it's better that their is no peace here, so American government (Bush and cohorts) pumps more money in to keep it's little police force in control, whilst they demonise anyone who isn't blue eyed, christian and european.
It genuinely is good to see the optimism of much of America now though. I just wish Obama would say something now. I hope he has something to say!

Not like this though.

"I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
- President George H.W. Bush Scary family

It's not Obama's place to say anything about this as there's only one president at a time and he's stated it several times. It's a quirk of the American election system that there's such a long transition period where we have the old lame duck plus the president elect waiting to be inaugurated on the 20th of January.

[racechick]

The Palestinians had their land taken from them by the British and given to the Israelis following the atrocities of the second world war. Actually that land did not belong to the British to be given away!! The Palestinians were then herded into Gaza and kept in refugee camps serviced by the UN. Many have grown up in refugee camps and never known their own homeland.The small areas they are left in are constantly resettled by Israelis. Unsuprisingly the Palestinians are somewhat pissed off at this and so we have Hamas. In the recent conflict their are 13 Israeli dead and 7or8hundred Palestinians mostly civivilians. Go figure!

[7UpJordan]

"I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
- President George H.W. Bush Scary family

Has that clown not gone yet?

[darwin dali]

"I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
- President George H.W. Bush Scary family

Has that clown not gone yet?

That's a quote from Bush senior, not his village idiot son.

[bud]

sounds like a Christian extremist

[Jabberwocky]

the thing that annoys me the most about all of this, and I am not only about Gaza here but any war that happens in the world. Why does the USA and UK feel that it is up to them to stick there nose in and pussyfoot around sending troops into place that we just don't want to be.

Afganistan, we destroyed a country to try and find Bin Laden. how many years later are we still getting our noses bloodied by people protecting there own land

Iraq, I am not even going to say anything about CIA putting Saddam into power. Apart from trying to do what he felt was best for his country (although he was slightly heavy handed) he did not do anything, but yet again USA/UK stick there noses in again and we get our arses kicked who are protecting there homeland.

How far back through history do you want to go? Vietnam, oh look USA got it's arse kicked by people protecting there home land!

World War 2, british troops got pushed back until the Nazi's started knocking on our door, then we turned around and give them a kicking when they tried to get on our home land!

So why oh why do USA/UK feel the need to tell people what to do in there own country? I am sure that the billions of pounds a year that Iraq/Afganistan could be better spent at home, on our homelands.

How long before all the battle weary troops withdrawn from Iraq head off to Gaza to do some "policing" it all stinks

[welshie]

[racechick]

And now 1000 Palestinians dead and... Oh, only 13 Israeli's !

[bud]

I have no sympathy for the Palestinians or the Israilis! Though it seems Hamas is coming out of this with the sympathy vote from some corners of the world even though they instigated this current chapter of the war

[racechick]

I have no sympathy for the Palestinians or the Israilis! Though it seems Hamas is coming out of this with the sympathy vote from some corners of the world even though they instigated this current chapter of the war

Look at the maps Bud!!! Its their country!