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[racechick]

McLaren Fan, racechick, and I just view events differently, not thru red-tint glasses.

Not all Ferrari fan's view event's thru red-tint glasses and it is rediculous to group all Ferrari fan's into the same singleminded category you percieve them to be in.

I support Ferrari but it doesn't mean that I look at the world through red-tinted glasses. Tex is right when he says not all Ferrari fans are the same and I condemned the FIA's actions in penalizing Mclaren two years ago. When I said lets not open that can of worms again I was referring to the debate over who has more integrity RD or JT.

The very fact that F1usa cannot acknowledge the other POV tells me that he is the one wearing the silver-tinted glasses

You dont need to wear any colour glasses to know who has the most integrity out of those two. Nothing to do with being a Ferari or McLaren supporter. One has integrity the other is a devious bar steward!. I say again nothing to do with liking either team, Briatore is another one in the Todt category, I wouldnt trust him as far as i could throw him. Now Domecalli I respect. I have huge respect for Massa's engineer and a growing respect for Montezemelo though the jury is still out. So dont come the "silver tintrd glasses " bit!

A person's integrity is based on their own personal morals and ethical principles. Todt has his own set of standards which differ from Ron Dennis's and yours. You and other Mclarenites say he has no integrity but I bet most Ferrari fans says the complete opposite and sees Ron as a man with little standards!

But I agree with you racechick on this one, I would trust Ron Dennis more than Jean Todt everyday of the week. What I am saying is don't say Todt has no integrity because integrity is subjective.

I guess so but it does involve being honest to yourself and your principals and not changing them to suit the moment or acting in a hypercritical way.
Would you say a person with principals from the gutter or a completely
A-moral person can have integrity?

[8-ball]

McLaren Fan, racechick, and I just view events differently, not thru red-tint glasses.

Not all Ferrari fan's view event's thru red-tint glasses and it is rediculous to group all Ferrari fan's into the same singleminded category you percieve them to be in.

I support Ferrari but it doesn't mean that I look at the world through red-tinted glasses. Tex is right when he says not all Ferrari fans are the same and I condemned the FIA's actions in penalizing Mclaren two years ago. When I said lets not open that can of worms again I was referring to the debate over who has more integrity RD or JT.

The very fact that F1usa cannot acknowledge the other POV tells me that he is the one wearing the silver-tinted glasses

You dont need to wear any colour glasses to know who has the most integrity out of those two. Nothing to do with being a Ferari or McLaren supporter. One has integrity the other is a devious bar steward!. I say again nothing to do with liking either team, Briatore is another one in the Todt category, I wouldnt trust him as far as i could throw him. Now Domecalli I respect. I have huge respect for Massa's engineer and a growing respect for Montezemelo though the jury is still out. So dont come the "silver tintrd glasses " bit!

A person's integrity is based on their own personal morals and ethical principles. Todt has his own set of standards which differ from Ron Dennis's and yours. You and other Mclarenites say he has no integrity but I bet most Ferrari fans says the complete opposite and sees Ron as a man with little standards!

But I agree with you racechick on this one, I would trust Ron Dennis more than Jean Todt everyday of the week. What I am saying is don't say Todt has no integrity because integrity is subjective.

I guess so but it does involve being honest to yourself and your principals and not changing them to suit the moment or acting in a hypercritical way.
Would you say a person with principals from the gutter or a completely
A-moral person can have integrity?

It depends on the situation. Obviously in normal society a person that robs their grandmother is amoral and should be universally condemned. Sport usually has a different set of rules. You would call Todt's manipulation of the FIA amoral but he would probably call it "playing the game".

[Gaz]

yeh the only diffrence is Toltd was freinds with the dealer

[f1usa]

McLaren Fan, racechick, and I just view events differently, not thru red-tint glasses.

Not all Ferrari fan's view event's thru red-tint glasses and it is rediculous to group all Ferrari fan's into the same singleminded category you percieve them to be in.

I've been working the last two nights and now will respond. The word perspective is the word used to describe view events differently (different perspective). I coined the phrase "red-tint glasses" to describe, Ferrari win at any cost, a Ferrari bias, and others that have been used on forum. Look up definitions of perceive and perspective, I did not cause about 10 posts to go off track, it was your mastery of the English language. If I offended any one with the red-tint glasses comment, for that I am sorry, but I can't apologize misleading posts of yours.

[darwin dali]

McLaren Fan, racechick, and I just view events differently, not thru red-tint glasses.

Not all Ferrari fan's view event's thru red-tint glasses and it is rediculous to group all Ferrari fan's into the same singleminded category you percieve them to be in.

I've been working the last two nights and now will respond. The word perspective is the word used to describe view events differently (different perspective). I coined the phrase "red-tint glasses" to describe, Ferrari win at any cost, a Ferrari bias, and others that have been used on forum. Look up definitions of perceive and perspective, I did not cause about 10 posts to go off track, it was your mastery of the English language. If I offended any one with the red-tint glasses comment, for that I am sorry, but I can't apologize misleading posts of yours.

Sorry, you didn't 'coin' the phrase 'red-tint glasses' - it's been around for quite a while already

[bud]

McLaren Fan, racechick, and I just view events differently, not thru red-tint glasses.

Not all Ferrari fan's view event's thru red-tint glasses and it is rediculous to group all Ferrari fan's into the same singleminded category you percieve them to be in.

I've been working the last two nights and now will respond. The word perspective is the word used to describe view events differently (different perspective). I coined the phrase "red-tint glasses" to describe, Ferrari win at any cost, a Ferrari bias, and others that have been used on forum. Look up definitions of perceive and perspective, I did not cause about 10 posts to go off track, it was your mastery of the English language. If I offended any one with the red-tint glasses comment, for that I am sorry, but I can't apologize misleading posts of yours.

Sorry, you didn't 'coin' the phrase 'red-tint glasses' - it's been around for quite a while already

so was the New World but that didnt stop Columbus claiming he found it now did it

[EwanM]

Yeah i miss Mikep99.

I do respect the Do Ron Ron

[EwanM]

I'll expand on that.

You have to respect Dennis et al. at Mclaren quite simply on what they have achieved for starters. However with this logic the team of Todt and De Monty (yum) have to harbour some sort of credibility as well. Especially with the rebirth of Ferrari.

Flavio is a bit of a tool, but he has done a good job at Renault considering budgets etc etc.
Symonds is the real legend in that team... and Alan Permane

[McLaren Fan]

You have to respect Dennis et al. at Mclaren quite simply on what they have achieved for starters.

I just thought these would be interesting statistics, counted by yours truly, so I hope they're accurate (I can't bloody count to save myself!). Since Ron Dennis took over as McLaren boss, he has overseen 138 Grands Prix victories and 17 world championships. Thus, Ron Dennis is the most successful boss in Formula One history. Second is Sir Frank Williams, with 113 Grands Prix victories and 16 world championships. Enzo Ferrari is third, with 97 Grands Prix victories and 17 world championships. Forth is Colin Chapman, who has 73 Grand Prix victories and 13 world championships.

I do feel particularly sorry for Ferrari. I really think he deserved to get a century. Also, I wonder how much more Lotus could have achieved had Chapman not died so young.

[EwanM]

You have to respect Dennis et al. at Mclaren quite simply on what they have achieved for starters.

I just thought these would be interesting statistics, counted by yours truly, so I hope they're accurate (I can't bloody count to save myself!). Since Ron Dennis took over as McLaren boss, he has overseen 138 Grands Prix victories and 17 world championships. Thus, Ron Dennis is the most successful boss in Formula One history. Second is Sir Frank Williams, with 113 Grands Prix victories and 16 world championships. Enzo Ferrari is third, with 97 Grands Prix victories and 17 world championships. Forth is Colin Chapman, who has 73 Grand Prix victories and 13 world championships.

I do feel particularly sorry for Ferrari. I really think he deserved to get a century. Also, I wonder how much more Lotus could have achieved had Chapman not died so young.

Well if Colin had lived on, who knows? Senna may have stayed and won titles with Lotus. Maybe we wouldn't have the Williams/Mclaren Success stories that we have these days?

[McLaren Fan]

Well if Colin had lived on, who knows? Senna may have stayed and won titles with Lotus. Maybe we wouldn't have the Williams/Mclaren Success stories that we have these days?

It's all ifs and buts, I suppose. I'd say McLaren and Williams still would have been successful. It was clear even before Chapman died that they would be forces to be reckoned with. McLaren were on the up again and Williams had won both the world championships in 1980. My view is that Chapman was Lotus and had he lived, Lotus would have won championships, but so would McLaren and Williams as well.

[EwanM]

Well if Colin had lived on, who knows? Senna may have stayed and won titles with Lotus. Maybe we wouldn't have the Williams/Mclaren Success stories that we have these days?

It's all ifs and buts, I suppose. I'd say McLaren and Williams still would have been successful. It was clear even before Chapman died that they would be forces to be reckoned with. McLaren were on the up again and Williams had won both the world championships in 1980. My view is that Chapman was Lotus and had he lived, Lotus would have won championships, but so would McLaren and Williams as well.

I think Mclaren and Williams would have still been successful, however I don't think as much.
With someone like Chapman, Senna maybe wouldn't have left along with Honda. Maybe Williams and later Mclaren wouldn't have got their hands on that engine.

[7UpJordan]

It's quite a difficult question to answer, Mansell would have definately stayed on longer with Lotus as Chapman was one of few people who could see Mansell's potential. Senna might have gone to Williams instead of Lotus.

Also Chapman might have introduced the active suspension much earlier than Warr did as apparently he thought up the idea not long before his untimely death.

The possibilities are endless, just as much as "what if Senna didn't die at Imola 1994".

[texasmr2]

McLaren Fan, racechick, and I just view events differently, not thru red-tint glasses.

Not all Ferrari fan's view event's thru red-tint glasses and it is rediculous to group all Ferrari fan's into the same singleminded category you percieve them to be in.

I've been working the last two nights and now will respond. The word perspective is the word used to describe view events differently (different perspective). I coined the phrase "red-tint glasses" to describe, Ferrari win at any cost, a Ferrari bias, and others that have been used on forum. Look up definitions of perceive and perspective, I did not cause about 10 posts to go off track, it was your mastery of the English language. If I offended any one with the red-tint glasses comment, for that I am sorry, but I can't apologize misleading posts of yours.