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[SENNA71]

Thanks Guys

No , i'm not scared actually it's been some time since I had not some good arguments with other enthusiasts

It's ok, I think everyone is enttitled to his/her opinion

Its what makes F1 exciting also, isn't it????

Thanks for the kind welcomes, everybody...even AKR

[AKR]

Thanks Everybody for the Welcome!!!!

Senna is one of the greatest. But the greatest is the one who has won the most championships. We all know who that is. Well your portuguese so do you like Felipe Massa then?

errr........sorry to desapoint you...but... ..no...

I was cheering for Hamilton this year ...truth is I do not like Ferrari , mainly because of two reasons...Back in Senna's times because of Prost...and After Senna's times because of Shumacher....I honestly HATE HIM ...the Day Senna died and I saw him jumping in the podium like nothing had happened...he died for me that day....

so I started cheering for everybody except him...Damon Hill, Villeneuve, Hakkinen...then came the schumachering-boring years, then I even cheered for Alonso, and finnaly I started cheering for Hamilton because he reminds me of Senna

Well, Guess I made my first enemy here (?)

Sooooooooooo...it means I'm from the "old" generation ...Senna, Mansell, even Prost ... can't say I'm interested in F1 as much as in the good old days, I just follow from time to time...

Un latino que no le gusta un equipo latino. ¡Ferrari es Latino, McLaren no es! ¡Me siento muy decepcionada contigo! Portugal, España, Italia, Sudamérica = Latino, Ferrari = Latino, McLaren = ¡ASCO! Un latino verdadero es aficionado solo por un equipo latino.

[AKR]

But the greatest is the one who has won the most championships.

actually again you said before that you cannot claim someone is the greatest because bias views get in the way. so which is it?

we all know you bagged Massa at the start of the year and now love him, so your words dont mean much anyway

Well given I know a whole deal more than you, if my words mean nothing than there isn't much I can say about you now is there.......

Senna is great, agreed, but Schumacher is the greatest. 7 times.

[AKR]

Thanks Guys

No , i'm not scared actually it's been some time since I had not some good arguments with other enthusiasts

It's ok, I think everyone is enttitled to his/her opinion

Its what makes F1 exciting also, isn't it????

Thanks for the kind welcomes, everybody...even AKR

Yeah true everyone has the right to their opinion. So I guess some will say Senna is the greatest and some will say it is Schumacher and so on.

Anyway

Dobrodošli (Welcome) Senna71.

[bud]

But the greatest is the one who has won the most championships.

actually again you said before that you cannot claim someone is the greatest because bias views get in the way. so which is it?

we all know you bagged Massa at the start of the year and now love him, so your words dont mean much anyway

Well given I know a whole deal more than you, if my words mean nothing than there isn't much I can say about you now is there.......

Senna is great, agreed, but Schumacher is the greatest. 7 times.

clearly you know nothing for if you knew anything you wouldn't be so brazing to even try and predict my knowledge and compare it to your own. Simply for what are you basing my knowledge on?

[SENNA71]

Un latino que no le gusta un equipo latino. ¡Ferrari es Latino, McLaren no es! ¡Me siento muy decepcionada contigo! Portugal, España, Italia, Sudamérica = Latino, Ferrari = Latino, McLaren = ¡ASCO! Un latino verdadero es aficionado solo por un equipo latino.

LOL by that way of thinking you should not cheer for ferrari=MAFIOSOS since you are not Latin also heheehe

but it's OK , if Senna have ever driven for Ferrari I would have liked them also, but I always cheered more the driver than the Team, I also appreciatted Mansell (EVEN WHEN he was in Cosa Nostra Rampante ) and then I cheered for Hakkinen in McLaren (the TEAM for which Senna won the 3 championships)

I cannot put Schumacher in the same cathegory as Senna because he started in a much stonger team than Senna at his times, all he always had a servant for Team mate, Senna would never allowed that to happen , he was too GOOD of a driver to accept having a servant to help him win races.

We can see that Senna was the BEST simply by the 3 poles we achieved in 1994 with the Williams FW16 which was a very bad car.

But honestly I regret not having seen Senna vs. Schumacher, he would have teach the German a lesson or two...even we cannot compare Piquet, Mansell, Prost with the oposition Schumacher had in the "boring years"

Cheers my friend

[AKR]

But the greatest is the one who has won the most championships.

actually again you said before that you cannot claim someone is the greatest because bias views get in the way. so which is it?

we all know you bagged Massa at the start of the year and now love him, so your words dont mean much anyway

Well given I know a whole deal more than you, if my words mean nothing than there isn't much I can say about you now is there.......

Senna is great, agreed, but Schumacher is the greatest. 7 times.

clearly you know nothing for if you knew anything you wouldn't be so brazing to even try and predict my knowledge and compare it to your own. Simply for what are you basing my knowledge on?

F1 knowledge. Only F1 knowledge nothing else. Remember this is an F1 forum. All I am arguing is F1. And any other topics you know very well I am highly intelligent. We have had this discussion on MSN before! But this time this basing of your knowledge was directed at F1 only. But let me make the question more clearer this time. You claim that Senna was the greatest driver ever? Why? What facts do you base this on? I want only facts, not opinions. Senna was indeed great but who says he was greater than either Michael Schumacher, Juan Manuel Fangio and Tazio Nuvolari? What analysis and explanation can you give me that he, Ayrton Senna was greater than all those 3 drivers? I base Michael Schumacher as the greatest because he has won the most WDC. That is fact. Now you explain to me why Senna is the greatest using only fact and not opinion. Go ahead I am waiting Bud.

[AKR]

LOL by that way of thinking you should not cheer for ferrari=MAFIOSOS since you are not Latin also heheehe

I see myself Italian more than Slovene because I grew up in Italy and know their culture far better than that of my birth place and ancestry. So I guess I am latanised if that counts. But seriously I was only joking about the Latin thing comment. I delibratly wrote it in Spanish so not many others could understand it as they probably would of taken me serious.

but it's OK , if Senna have ever driven for Ferrari I would have liked them also, but I always cheered more the driver than the Team, I also appreciatted Mansell (EVEN WHEN he was in Cosa Nostra Rampante ) and then I cheered for Hakkinen in McLaren (the TEAM for which Senna won the 3 championships)

I see you are a driver oriented person more than team. That is understandable. Obviously I am the other way around. I would go for anyone driving Ferrari. Senna I do not dispute as a great driver. Never. I know a lot about F1 and I wouldn't let my super high passion for Ferrari get in my way to say something stupid about Ayrton Senna which would make me look like a fool. For the record I always like Nigel Mansell and was happy for him when he won the WDC for Williams-Renault in 1992. He was a very great driver who simply had lots of bad luck with cars at both Williams and Ferrari. But at least Williams eventually got it right for him.

I cannot put Schumacher in the same cathegory as Senna because he started in a much stonger team than Senna at his times, all he always had a servant for Team mate, Senna would never allowed that to happen , he was too GOOD of a driver to accept having a servant to help him win races.

That rases the question about Lewis Hamilton then. Is he really that good? He started in one of the 2 best teams. He started in a car that was capable of winning the WDC in his first year. Had Michael Schumacher or Ayrton Senna started in the best cars of their time would they of been WDC as rookies? In my opinion I would say that Lewis Hamilton would be a no one right now if he started in teams like Toro Rosso like most people did. Of course eventually like all drivers with talent he would of gotten a shot at McLaren or Ferrari etc and proven himself either way. Just like Senna, Schumacher etc.

We can see that Senna was the BEST simply by the 3 poles we achieved in 1994 with the Williams FW16 which was a very bad car.

I was under the impression that that Williams was the best car by far in 1994. The Benetton of Michael Schumacher had only the less powerful Ford V8 in it!

But honestly I regret not having seen Senna vs. Schumacher, he would have teach the German a lesson or two...even we cannot compare Piquet, Mansell, Prost with the oposition Schumacher had in the "boring years"

At least you say it as a true Senna fan. That I respect. A lot of people here say Senna was better than Schumacher simply because they are McLaren lovers and Senna was a McLaren driver and Schumacher a Ferrari driver. I bet with them, had Senna been Ferrari and Schumacher McLaren, that they would all say Schumacher is better. I am glad you are not like that and once again respect your opinion on the subject.

[/quote]

Me veseli SENNA71. (Pleased to meet you).

[bud]

But the greatest is the one who has won the most championships.

actually again you said before that you cannot claim someone is the greatest because bias views get in the way. so which is it?

we all know you bagged Massa at the start of the year and now love him, so your words dont mean much anyway

Well given I know a whole deal more than you, if my words mean nothing than there isn't much I can say about you now is there.......

Senna is great, agreed, but Schumacher is the greatest. 7 times.

clearly you know nothing for if you knew anything you wouldn't be so brazing to even try and predict my knowledge and compare it to your own. Simply for what are you basing my knowledge on?

F1 knowledge. Only F1 knowledge nothing else. Remember this is an F1 forum. All I am arguing is F1. And any other topics you know very well I am highly intelligent. We have had this discussion on MSN before! But this time this basing of your knowledge was directed at F1 only. But let me make the question more clearer this time. You claim that Senna was the greatest driver ever? Why? What facts do you base this on? I want only facts, not opinions. Senna was indeed great but who says he was greater than either Michael Schumacher, Juan Manuel Fangio and Tazio Nuvolari? What analysis and explanation can you give me that he, Ayrton Senna was greater than all those 3 drivers? I base Michael Schumacher as the greatest because he has won the most WDC. That is fact. Now you explain to me why Senna is the greatest using only fact and not opinion. Go ahead I am waiting Bud.

AKR you do not say you know more than me on F1 nor would i say i know more than you!

putting it simply its all about quality not quantity. Being the most successful doesnt make you the greatest.

in basketball for example Michael Jordan is unquetionably the greatest player of all time yet there were others who averaged more points scored more points more steals more blocks more rebounds the list goes on. But his skill is what separated him!

[AKR]

But the greatest is the one who has won the most championships.

actually again you said before that you cannot claim someone is the greatest because bias views get in the way. so which is it?

we all know you bagged Massa at the start of the year and now love him, so your words dont mean much anyway

Well given I know a whole deal more than you, if my words mean nothing than there isn't much I can say about you now is there.......

Senna is great, agreed, but Schumacher is the greatest. 7 times.

clearly you know nothing for if you knew anything you wouldn't be so brazing to even try and predict my knowledge and compare it to your own. Simply for what are you basing my knowledge on?

F1 knowledge. Only F1 knowledge nothing else. Remember this is an F1 forum. All I am arguing is F1. And any other topics you know very well I am highly intelligent. We have had this discussion on MSN before! But this time this basing of your knowledge was directed at F1 only. But let me make the question more clearer this time. You claim that Senna was the greatest driver ever? Why? What facts do you base this on? I want only facts, not opinions. Senna was indeed great but who says he was greater than either Michael Schumacher, Juan Manuel Fangio and Tazio Nuvolari? What analysis and explanation can you give me that he, Ayrton Senna was greater than all those 3 drivers? I base Michael Schumacher as the greatest because he has won the most WDC. That is fact. Now you explain to me why Senna is the greatest using only fact and not opinion. Go ahead I am waiting Bud.

AKR you do not say you know more than me on F1 nor would i say i know more than you!

putting it simply its all about quality not quantity. Being the most successful doesnt make you the greatest.

in basketball for example Michael Jordan is unquetionably the greatest player of all time yet there were others who averaged more points scored more points more steals more blocks more rebounds the list goes on. But his skill is what separated him!

Ok then, let us put Schumacher aside then. Let's assume that according to your analysis that Senna was better than him. what about against say Tazio Nuvolari? Completely different era, different cars, different very much everything. But both were highly talented Grand Prix drivers. Who would be greater?

[SENNA71]

I base Michael Schumacher as the greatest because he has won the most WDC.

Hi AKR (btw, you are a girl right? )

Thnaks for your imput, very interesting and I can see you really are a TRUE Ferrari fan, for which I have all the respect.

As to your approach I would say it is very smiplistic since you cannot compare for instance Fangio with Schumacher, they drove in diferent "Eras" of F1 so it becomes a little dificult to compare.
Even comparing Senna with Schumacher is not easy , since the epithome of an Era for one (Senna) was the beginning of another (Schumacher). In 1994 Senna had already nothing to prove to anyone, while Schumacher was still starting to climb the mountain, altought everybody already agreed he was the best driver to show up in F1..since Senna

I was under the impression that that Williams was the best car by far in 1994. The Benetton of Michael Schumacher had only the less powerful Ford V8 in it!

There are many comments made by Senna , even before the season started , that the FW16 was a very dificult car to drive and had no comparison even with the "hibrid" FW15C (basically the FW15 from 1993 but without active suspension)....remember that williams was the 1st team to go for active suspension so they were having trouble reverting to conventional ones.
Also he commented he had no space at all inside the cockpit (again one of the teories that surfaced at the time of his accident was that the stering whell column had been filled and reduced in diameter, then resoldered, to allow him some more space for the legs...and that it probably broken causing the accident)

The proof that the FW16 was not very good is that some races after Willaims came out with the FW16B.

All in all , for me the TRUE SEASON that showed how good Senna was , was...1993...when in a really but really inferior car , Mclaren MP4-8 with Ford-Customer Engine, he drove magnificently and stll managed to be vice-champion!!!
That for me summoned up the guy has being above the rest.

Also we can spend sometime discussing personallity issues, and also in that for me Senna beats Schumacher werever you want...that guy had an "aura" , or charisma around him that even I cannot explain...I can only tell you the day he died I cried as a small kid, for me it was like loosing an older brother...

[SENNA71]

putting it simply its all about quality not quantity. Being the most successful doesnt make you the greatest.

in basketball for example Michael Jordan is unquetionably the greatest player of all time yet there were others who averaged more points scored more points more steals more blocks more rebounds the list goes on. But his skill is what separated him!

My thought exactly, statistics aren't everything

btw AKR, if you read this text here : viewtopic.php?p=81551#p81551
perhaps you will understand more what I (and bud at least, I think) meant... my point of view , let's say it...

Cheers!

[AKR]

I base Michael Schumacher as the greatest because he has won the most WDC.

Hi AKR (btw, you are a girl right? )

Thnaks for your imput, very interesting and I can see you really are a TRUE Ferrari fan, for which I have all the respect.

As to your approach I would say it is very smiplistic since you cannot compare for instance Fangio with Schumacher, they drove in diferent "Eras" of F1 so it becomes a little dificult to compare.
Even comparing Senna with Schumacher is not easy , since the epithome of an Era for one (Senna) was the beginning of another (Schumacher). In 1994 Senna had already nothing to prove to anyone, while Schumacher was still starting to climb the mountain, altought everybody already agreed he was the best driver to show up in F1..since Senna

I was under the impression that that Williams was the best car by far in 1994. The Benetton of Michael Schumacher had only the less powerful Ford V8 in it!

There are many comments made by Senna , even before the season started , that the FW16 was a very dificult car to drive and had no comparison even with the "hibrid" FW15C (basically the FW15 from 1993 but without active suspension)....remember that williams was the 1st team to go for active suspension so they were having trouble reverting to conventional ones.
Also he commented he had no space at all inside the cockpit (again one of the teories that surfaced at the time of his accident was that the stering whell column had been filled and reduced in diameter, then resoldered, to allow him some more space for the legs...and that it probably broken causing the accident)

The proof that the FW16 was not very good is that some races after Willaims came out with the FW16B.

All in all , for me the TRUE SEASON that showed how good Senna was , was...1993...when in a really but really inferior car , Mclaren MP4-8 with Ford-Customer Engine, he drove magnificently and stll managed to be vice-champion!!!
That for me summoned up the guy has being above the rest.

Also we can spend sometime discussing personallity issues, and also in that for me Senna beats Schumacher werever you want...that guy had an "aura" , or charisma around him that even I cannot explain...I can only tell you the day he died I cried as a small kid, for me it was like loosing an older brother...

Yes I am a girl, well woman because I am 23. You sure know a lot. I can't argue with your facts. You also present them in the best possible way. Not one word of favortism I have picked up, despite the fact that it still points to Senna being the best. And I agree with Senna's 1993 performance in the inferior McLaren. He proved he was better than Alian Prost by a mile. I don't think Prost was all that a hot shot. He proved many times against Senna back in 1993 that he couldn't drive in the wet as Senna walked all over him in the inferior car.

[AKR]

putting it simply its all about quality not quantity. Being the most successful doesnt make you the greatest.

in basketball for example Michael Jordan is unquetionably the greatest player of all time yet there were others who averaged more points scored more points more steals more blocks more rebounds the list goes on. But his skill is what separated him!

My thought exactly, statistics aren't everything

btw AKR, if you read this text here : viewtopic.php?p=81551#p81551
perhaps you will understand more what I (and bud at least, I think) meant... my point of view , let's say it...

Cheers!

Yes Schumacher had it easier as his team mate was never allowed to beat him. Senna didn't have that. If Barrichello were allowed to challenge Schumacher maybe he wouldn't of won 7. I never understood why Ferrari did this after Schumacher had won his first 2 drivers titles. After that, especially in 2002, Ferrari had the best car, I didn't see the need for such "orders" at the beginning of the season. I am glad they haven't done this with Massa and Raikkonen.

[SENNA71]

Thanks again for the kind words

You sure know a lot

actually I know a lot more about the "golden-age of F1" than about this last years, at that time I was a real aficionado, and now i'm not anymore

btw, I have a picture of Prost in the Ferrari back in Estoril in 1991 GP , when he abandoned the race right in front of me if you are interested I can scan it and place it here in the forum ehehehehe....for me it was a very nice moment, I could shout out all the apreciattion I had for him ehehehehe

I don't think Prost was all that a hot shot.

actually Prost was boring to watch...

Saludos